US Pilots Labor Discussion

[toganoflex]

I understand your previously stated concerns about East pilots taking West upgrades,so you must be aware that the East pilots have the same concern. What I don't understand is how The NIC allows the east pilots to take advantage of the retirements from the East, and DOH with C&R prevents the west from upgrading into those retirements from the west.

The C&R's proposed by the east were insulting.

They wanted a majority of any new planes going to them (don't know the ratio but it was very skewed).

And they wanted the west to take the furlough hit. Most of the west would have been on the street before the bottom original eastie.

If it was straight fences then fine with me. But those C & R's were bullshit.

They were getting into PHX one way or the other without opening up the east to us.

 

[Pi brat]

Shareholder really want them to start bringing in that ancillary revenue.

That's a ton of money they're leaving on the table.

I watched an episode of Titans on CNBC the other day about Herb and SW. Gary Kelly had a completely different take on charging for bags. I can't remember the number he gave about the money they figured that they had gained in additional boarding due to not charging for bags, but it was huge. Interesting show if you can catch it.

We will see who is right about the bags, but after 25 years of hearing "Any day now...." about SWA, I'm a little shy about counting them out.

As for our charging of bags go, I don't have a problem with the concept, but as happens so much with this company, it's execution is terrible. The way we do it makes so many people so mad. Have you guys ever been in the gate when a gate announces that they will gladly check a bag for free? How many times do you get asked "where is my bag" in the jetway?
If I were King, I would charge the $39 priceline ticket guy for air, and the people that buy an expensive ticket and/or spend tons of money I would charge nothing extra.

Anyway, my contribution to the off topic subject.

 

[N924PS]

That's one reason I feel Nicolau really has no clue as to how airline pilot seniority really works, or just made his decisions on whim. Either way, the guy should never be used for this type of work again.



I agree with your analysis. Although I don't think that there would have been a torrent of the 517 piling in to PHX/LAS, there would definitely have been a number of former PSA pilots in the 517 (and there are a LOT of them in that category) who still live on the west coast who would have bid PHX and taken the best jobs there. This is again why Nicolau was clueless. There were basically no protections from the 517 given to the PHX/LAS pilots (something USAPA wants to do, and I agree that PHX/LAS should be protected from the very senior east pilots.)

There simply are not that many former PSA pilots left. Many of those that remain fly the A330 or B767 and won't be going to PHX. Most have 5 years or less left to age 65.

It's really not the issue you portray it be.......

 

[Pi brat]

The C&R's proposed by the east were insulting.

They wanted a majority of any new planes going to them (don't know the ratio but it was very skewed).

And they wanted the west to take the furlough hit. Most of the west would have been on the street before the bottom original eastie.

If it was straight fences then fine with me. But those C & R's were bullshit.

They were getting into PHX one way or the other without opening up the east to us.

I've said before that C&Rs are hard to do with the disparity of LOS with these groups. I'll make a deal with you. Post the C&Rs on here and outline your disagreements with them. If I see you point I will take it to the BPR for you.

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

Parker admitted that we probably lose a number of passengers because of bag fees. But those are not the desirable business fares we're losing and the revenue we generate with fees more than makes up for those lower fares that we do lose to SWA.

And business pax actually don't mind the fares. They know how to pack and can minimize or eliminate them through the FF programs.

1, On an overall comparison market to market - we are NOW substantially cheaper than SWA.

2. We no longer attract "business travellers" because we rewarded them for their loyality by running them off a few years ago in favor of the leisure traveller.

3. Nobody likes to be nickel and dimed with fees - even if they are used to it.

4. If given the choice of a half full SWA flight or a completely full LCC flight - they win everytime and are still profitable.

5. Competent management - they know what they are doing

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

Dupe Post

 

[Pi brat]

There simply are not that many former PSA pilots left. Many of those that remain fly the A330 or B767 and won't be going to PHX. Most have 5 years or less left to age 65.

It's really not the issue you portray it be.......

Just you right?

There are non-PSA guys that do and may want to live in PHX.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I watched an episode of Titans on CNBC the other day about Herb and SW. Gary Kelly had a completely different take on charging for bags. I can't remember the number he gave about the money they figured that they had gained in additional boarding due to not charging for bags, but it was huge. Interesting show if you can catch it.

Well, Gary Kelly can say anything he wants on CNBC. However the financial statements filed over the last three years don't show those kind of results.

FY Revenues Net Income Net Income %
2010 $12.1B $459M 3.7%
2009 $10.8B $ 99M 0.9%
2008 $10.5B $178M 1.7%
2007 $ 9.4B $645M 6.8%

So comparing 2008 to 2009 WN grew in total revenue by only 2.8% and dropped in net income, so where is the financial benefit to "bags fly free"? But even if that 2.8% growth was from baggage fee adverse clients, there's no way it makes up for not charging for bags. ($0.3B * .9% NI = $2.7M).

Also, the total net income for 2008-2010 is only $736M which is well short of the Big 5/4 network carriers claims that baggage revenues/incomes are nearly $500M annually. WN flies more passengers domestically so one would think their potential baggage profits alone would be no less than $1.5B from mid 2008 to mid 2011. So, exactly how does he explain this away as being better for the shareholders than matching the competitive trends of charging for at least one of the bags? heck, even if they only charged $10 for the second bag and left the first bag free, they probably would have generated substantially more profit than they did using the above figures. To say the least, I'm not convinced.

 

[mrbreeze]

For your consideration:

My daughter, Rebecca, was diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes and Celiac disease (allergic to wheat and oats) about 7 yrs ago. She has been a patient at the Barbara Davis Diabetes Research Institute in Denver for about 6 yrs, and is very involved in trying to find a cure for Diabetes. The Barbara Davis Center was set up by the wife of billionaire Marvin Davis, back in the 1980's in seeking a cure, since he was diabetic.

Rebecca makes about 6 trips (3 hrs each round trip) per year to the BD center for physicals, to donate blood for research, and each day sends her blood glucose numbers to the BD Center and Children's Hospital to the study groups at 9 pm via palm pilot, seeking to help find a cure for Diabetes.

On Aug 20th, at age 15, she is a Captain on a 31 mile bike riding fundraiser for the American Diabetes Association, to raise funds for research. (yes, I will be out there huffing and puffing)

So you see, as much as she has to fight the disease on a daily basis, she is fighting to find a cure daily. We plod along everyday in our own little bubbles and merger problems, but she is busy with this other thing in her life. Can you help her with her "little" thing?

So far, the West pilots have donated about $850, thx very much guys, and the East pilots have donated about $6900....mainly because I am in closer contact with the East guys and have better access. And of course, after 3 attempts USAirways corporate has donated $0. (shows where the heart really is, eh?)

If you feel inclined to help out, Rebecca and I greatly appreciate it. I would love to see a breakthough so that she can be a normal little girl again....even if she is 40 yrs old at the time. 🙂

Here is the link to her website and her mailing address if you prefer to write a check, which should be made out to the American Diabetes Association. On the website, you can use your credit/debit card and ADA will email a tax deductable receipt to you. If you mail a check, Rebecca will personally reply and add your name to the donor's list on the website.

Thx guys,
breeze

http://main.diabetes.org/site/TR?px=5344560&fr_id=7610&pg=personal

Rebecca Lynch
3224 Lymen St
Ft Collins, CO 80526

 

[Pi brat]

Well, Gary Kelly can say anything he wants on CNBC. However the financial statements filed over the last three years don't show those kind of results.

FY Revenues Net Income Net Income %
2010 $12.1B $459M 3.7%
2009 $10.8B $ 99M 0.9%
2008 $10.5B $178M 1.7%
2007 $ 9.4B $645M 6.8%

So comparing 2008 to 2009 WN grew in total revenue by only 2.8% and dropped in net income, so where is the financial benefit to "bags fly free"? But even if that 2.8% growth was from baggage fee adverse clients, there's no way it makes up for not charging for bags. ($0.3B * .9% NI = $2.7M).

Also, the total net income for 2008-2010 is only $736M which is well short of the Big 5/4 network carriers claims that baggage revenues/incomes are nearly $500M annually. WN flies more passengers domestically so one would think their potential baggage profits alone would be no less than $1.5B from mid 2008 to mid 2011. So, exactly how does he explain this away as being better for the shareholders than matching the competitive trends of charging for at least one of the bags? heck, even if they only charged $10 for the second bag and left the first bag free, they probably would have generated substantially more profit than they did using the above figures. To say the least, I'm not convinced.

Drop Mr Kelly a note CG, maybe he will have you over to DAL where you can show him the error of his ways! They seem to like money over there, so I'm guessing they think it is in their long term best interest. We'll see, they can always join the charging bandwagon later, although there would be a little crow to eat after all the commercials and ads.

FY year '09 to '10 saw a pretty big jump in revenue, profit and margin. I had to buy a few tickets last year and they were never the lowest. Why are we getting to the place where they can charge a premium?

 

[Black Magic]

I agree. While commuting to and from DEN, I have overheard phone conversations where business travelers were talking about SW's tickets being a bit higher than USAir's, so they chose to ride with us.

I gag everytime I see a TV commercial in DEN where SW brags about bags flyin for free......sure the bags fly free, but the initial ticket is $25 higher. I have passed this propaganda on to all friends and FB ppl, so maybe their ploy isn't working.

well....not that I have any control...LOL

breeze

Thats not always the case. Many routes out of phx for example sw and us have exact same fare price, but with sw allowing 2 free checked bags the obvious choice for customers is swa.

Just an outsiders looking in on the pilot issue, if US Airways was to merge with American or United do the east pilots think the straight DOH would prevail? Lmao.

 

[767one]

Just you right?

There are non-PSA guys that do and may want to live in PHX.
[/quote

I just went to PHX on mon. to cool off from the heat it Md! That being said I really do like it green most of the year so I'm not bidding PHX even if I get the chance.


Bob

 

[mrbreeze]

Thats not always the case. Many routes out of phx for example sw and us have exact same fare price, but with sw allowing 2 free checked bags the obvious choice for customers is swa.

Just an outsiders looking in on the pilot issue, if US Airways was to merge with American or United do the east pilots think the straight DOH would prevail? Lmao.

Str8 DOH? maybe not, but what I understand is that the latest Federal law dictates now, which it the Allagehny/Mohawk agreement......DOH with conditions and restrictions.....no more stapling to the bottom when the different pilot groups come from different unions.

What's your point?

 

[nic4us]

I understand your previously stated concerns about East pilots taking West upgrades,so you must be aware that the East pilots have the same concern. What I don't understand is how The NIC allows the east pilots to take advantage of the retirements from the East, and DOH with C&R prevents the west from upgrading into those retirements from the west.

6. In the event that either pilot group fails to fill its allotment of positions on an
aircraft type under the quota and ratio system outlined above, the members of
the other pre-merger group shall be entitled to be awarded any positions for
which there are insufficient bidders and the conditions and restrictions
applicable to the position in question shall no longer be subject to the
limitations specified herein, but shall instead be awarded pursuant to the
integrated seniority list and merged collective bargaining agreement


So, lets say all else being equal, 35 West captains retire in 2008. 35 West F/Os upgrade into those positions and there are now 35 West F/O positions that have to be filled for which there is obviously insufficient bidders. If I were Coello, I would bid PHX, be number 1 F/O, then on the very next bid, take the captain slot as I am now the #1 West F/O without C&Rs.

 

[toganoflex]

I've said before that C&Rs are hard to do with the disparity of LOS with these groups. I'll make a deal with you. Post the C&Rs on here and outline your disagreements with them. If I see you point I will take it to the BPR for you.

Don't bother. I've spelled out the two most egregious ones. If you want to confirm what I said, find one of your own that was involved in the process and they can explain it to you.

We had 7 year fences on the table and the east wanted to extend those out another 3? years. Add to that what I stated and you can understand why we're where we're at.

And why would you have to take it to the BPR for me? Am I not allowed to do that for myself being a member in good standing?

And why not bother? Because negotiations ended a LONG time ago.

Its Nic - straight up or sub-B scale wages. Your choice.