US Pilots Labor Discussion

[prechilill]

Res,

I can think of a third choice.

The east pilots can stay the course, keep fighting and get handed the pink slip they should have been given in 2005.

And they will live in eternal happiness enjoying their attrition...
Cake, eating it as well. Just need a few volunteers...

 

[aquagreen73s]

In the simplest terms, respect is earned, and the east pilot group has not done anything to earn anyones respect.

I think it's accurate to say that the West has sure surprised many who underestimated us, namely the East and Parker.

Parker now gets it.

 

[Code Name V]

So, do you plan to continue to "adhere to the FOM as stated" even after USAPA negotiates a favorable CBA, or will you go back to regular operations once you have the pay rates you are seeking? The court fines and east assessments could be quite an onerous burden to the east pilots whether they are still on LOA93 or some form of an industry standard CBA. The court will not really care what the FOM says, only that the illegal work slowdown stops as identified by the company's performance metrics.

Quite a conundrum USAPA has now created for you...continue to disrupt operations and get a hefty assessment while still on LOA93 just for doing what is required and safe, or get a new contract and then be forced to admit that the work slowdown had nothing to do with safety but was really all about trying, in vain, to illegally gain negotiating leverage. Hmm, what will you do? Oh well, think of it this way, each dollar of assessment that flows from your paycheck back into the Company's bank account might eventually come back to you by way of a profit sharing check - your slice of the 10% anyway. 😉

Well, I agree that there is a conundrum but not the way you paint it. There is no 'going back' regardless of LOA 93 or a contract. The new paradigm is that the FOM will be followed to the letter from this time forward as it should have been from the beginning. No extra effort, no shortcuts, no delayed write ups, no min fuel even with good weather.

The conundrum rests with the company. They are the ones that took good employees that were willing to give 120% and now give the min. They decided on the Jerry Glass model of leadership by intimidation. They must now make a decision on continuing down this failed path or actually changing their corporate culture which has been suggested to them time and again. By doing so, they will not change adherence to the FOM but they would get people to work as a team and with that will improve performance.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that this is possible under this current regime. They have proven to be anything but leaders and they have forever turned the tide of how labor and management will react. There is not a manager here that will ever be trusted again and with that stigma, can no longer demand the respect required for the position they attest.

V

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Well, I agree that there is a conundrum but not the way you paint it. There is no 'going back' regardless of LOA 93 or a contract. The new paradigm is that the FOM will be followed to the letter from this time forward as it should have been from the beginning. No extra effort, no shortcuts, no delayed write ups, no min fuel even with good weather.

The conundrum rests with the company. They are the ones that took good employees that were willing to give 120% and now give the min. They decided on the Jerry Glass model of leadership by intimidation. They must now make a decision on continuing down this failed path or actually changing their corporate culture which has been suggested to them time and again. By doing so, they will not change adherence to the FOM but they would get people to work as a team and with that will improve performance.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that this is possible under this current regime. They have proven to be anything but leaders and they have forever turned the tide of how labor and management will react. There is not a manager here that will ever be trusted again and with that stigma, can no longer demand the respect required for the position they attest.

V

Hear, hear! and, excellent, sir.

Those management morons are following the script that worked before with the westies.

BTW, AIM taxi speed comes out to 4.32 knots. I don't think even I can taxi that slow.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

You agreed to binding arbitration.

The arbitration is only binding on the conditions that spawned it. Those conditions changed, not to mention the unacknowledged lottery ticket it engendered.

 

[mrbreeze]

Breeze,

Serious question here. Why should the company show any respect for a pilot group that does not respect itself? Or for that matter, any employees that do not respect themselves.

From the begining, the east pilots never considered the West pilots their equals, and thought they had the upper hand in every event that has unfolded. Like I have been saying all along, the reason for this is because you never understand the position you are in, and it is never a good one. The east thought this was just another USAir buys somebody else merger (absolutely the furthest thing from the truth), and that those pesky desert commuter pilots would be just fine with getting tacked on to the almighty east list, as a backdoor in to a "real airline".

Your blatant disregard for the position and status of the West pilots, West employees and America West Airlines, has been the biggest impediment in this entire fiasco.

In the simplest terms, respect is earned, and the east pilot group has not done anything to earn anyones respect.

Nic,

You underestimate the self respect that this pilot group has...that is why we are where we are today.

As far as earning respect......we gave up $9 billion, (personally, a 65% paycut due to a down grade). The company put that cash in their pockets and told us we were lucky to have a job...freakin BS return for our investment. You take even a 45% paycut, which was more in the norm, and tell me that you don't expect something in return, other than being told that you are lucky to have a job, getting screwed by the NIC to the point of never being back in the left seat before retiring, and having the company keep you on BK wages as long as possible. We didn't sign up for this kind of abuse....so we are where we are.

As far as respect for the West pilots.....I reallly believe that all the disrespect has been generated by the NIC with the way things have evolved since then. I don't think the disrespect was there before and it's too bad we can't rewind the clock. I went to FFDO training several yrs ago and met some great guys from AW, but the NIC has changed everything. He did no favors for any pilot or even the company. I can understand how previous DOH would come across as the West pilots feeling like they were facing being over run by the older pilot group...but, honestly, most of us had the wait and see attitude. However, we didn't expect to get screwed. Understand that through the BKs, we gave up everything that we had to ensure that our jobs would be there in the future....the ONLY thing that we had left was our seniority. That is why we are ready to do whatevedr it takes to get womething back out of our investment, instead of being told that we are lucky to have a job.

BIG difference from the NW/DL deal.

breeze

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Nic,

You underestimate the self respect that this pilot group has...that is why we are where we are today.

As far as earning respect......we gave up $9 billion, (personally, a 65% paycut due to a down grade). The company put that cash in their pockets and told us we were lucky to have a job...freakin BS return for our investment. You take even a 45% paycut, which was more in the norm, and tell me that you don't expect something in return, other than being told that you are lucky to have a job, getting screwed by the NIC to the point of never being back in the left seat before retiring, and having the company keep you on BK wages as long as possible. We didn't sign up for this kind of abuse....so we are where we are.

As far as respect for the West pilots.....I reallly believe that all the disrespect has been generated by the NIC with the way things have evolved since then. I don't think the disrespect was there before and it's too bad we can't rewind the clock. I went to FFDO training several yrs ago and met some great guys from AW, but the NIC has changed everything. He did no favors for any pilot or even the company. I can understand how previous DOH would come across as the West pilots feeling like they were facing being over run by the older pilot group...but, honestly, most of us had the wait and see attitude. However, we didn't expect to get screwed. Understand that through the BKs, we gave up everything that we had to ensure that our jobs would be there in the future....the ONLY thing that we had left was our seniority. That is why we are ready to do whatevedr it takes to get womething back out of our investment, instead of being told that we are lucky to have a job.

BIG difference from the NW/DL deal.

breeze

I respect that, I can tell it comes from the heart, and I understand how you would have those feelings. Although as far as what's happened post nic, I would ascribe that more to the attempt begun by the east mec to 'gang up' on the west as I would to Nicolau and what he did. As soon as the nic came out, the east tried to place the west under duress. And as soon as usapa was spawned, it became exponentially worse. THAT is what I wish would have never transpired, nothing good came from it.

Had we stayed in JNC and let the process work........

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

So, do you plan to continue to "adhere to the FOM as stated" even after USAPA negotiates a favorable CBA, or will you go back to regular operations once you have the pay rates you are seeking? The court fines and east assessments could be quite an onerous burden to the east pilots whether they are still on LOA93 or some form of an industry standard CBA. The court will not really care what the FOM says, only that the illegal work slowdown stops as identified by the company's performance metrics.

Quite a conundrum USAPA has now created for you...continue to disrupt operations and get a hefty assessment while still on LOA93 just for doing what is required and safe, or get a new contract and then be forced to admit that the work slowdown had nothing to do with safety but was really all about trying, in vain, to illegally gain negotiating leverage. Hmm, what will you do? Oh well, think of it this way, each dollar of assessment that flows from your paycheck back into the Company's bank account might eventually come back to you by way of a profit sharing check - your slice of the 10% anyway. 😉

You seem to allow a way too much sun on your pate. Seems to have melted your thought processes.

So, if USAPA gets assessed, and the pilots get bigger bills, sans a ruling excluding west pilots, do not the west pilots not pay at the same ratio as east pilots?

and, Callaway. Nice way to further divide the pilot group. Calling people names without "calling them names". Got it. Seems you are projecting from the management perspective.

 

[NoYellowNeck]

The arbitration is only binding on the conditions that spawned it. Those conditions changed, not to mention the unacknowledged lottery ticket it engendered.

Does that apply to your snapback?

 

[HPearlyretiree]

The arbitration is only binding on the conditions that spawned it. Those conditions changed, not to mention the unacknowledged lottery ticket it engendered.

Oh, so then if you sign a contract with the company and the conditions change, the company can break the contract?

Binding, it means binding. Live up to your agreements, or let others not live up to agreements with you.

 

[crazystnic]

Nic,

You underestimate the self respect that this pilot group has...that is why we are where we are today.

As far as earning respect......we gave up $9 billion, (personally, a 65% paycut due to a down grade). The company put that cash in their pockets and told us we were lucky to have a job...freakin BS return for our investment. You take even a 45% paycut, which was more in the norm, and tell me that you don't expect something in return, other than being told that you are lucky to have a job, getting screwed by the NIC to the point of never being back in the left seat before retiring, and having the company keep you on BK wages as long as possible. We didn't sign up for this kind of abuse....so we are where we are.

As far as respect for the West pilots.....I reallly believe that all the disrespect has been generated by the NIC with the way things have evolved since then. I don't think the disrespect was there before and it's too bad we can't rewind the clock. I went to FFDO training several yrs ago and met some great guys from AW, but the NIC has changed everything. He did no favors for any pilot or even the company. I can understand how previous DOH would come across as the West pilots feeling like they were facing being over run by the older pilot group...but, honestly, most of us had the wait and see attitude. However, we didn't expect to get screwed. Understand that through the BKs, we gave up everything that we had to ensure that our jobs would be there in the future....the ONLY thing that we had left was our seniority. That is why we are ready to do whatevedr it takes to get womething back out of our investment, instead of being told that we are lucky to have a job.

BIG difference from the NW/DL deal.

breeze

Bravo,
very well said

 

[A320 Driver]

Does that apply to your snapback?

There is NO snapback. We never asked for one. There are many sections of LOA93...pay was just one of them. That payrate expired 12/30/09. It is written in plain english. The rest of the LOA remains just as it is until amended. I took the time yesterday to re-read most of the transcript from that arbitration. We have a VERY convincing case. We will see what happens.

Driver B)

 

[mrbreeze]

I respect that, I can tell it comes from the heart, and I understand how you would have those feelings. Although as far as what's happened post nic, I would ascribe that more to the attempt begun by the east mec to 'gang up' on the west as I would to Nicolau and what he did. As soon as the nic came out, the east tried to place the west under duress. And as soon as usapa was spawned, it became exponentially worse. THAT is what I wish would have never transpired, nothing good came from it.

Had we stayed in JNC and let the process work........

I have to agree with you.....the East was shocked by the NIC and there was probably a big over reaction....but you have to consider that along with those facts, we were being screwed by ALPA National, along with some of the guys in the ALPA MEC, so the obvious thing was to separate from it all and vote ALPA out. I am still not sure that that was the best route to take, but it sure seemed like the only path that made sense at the time. Unfortunately, USAPA has a lot of growing to do, so we shall see.

Cooler heads could have prevailed...even today. Ya know, Parker could step up to the plate and end all of this today. He could offer a contract that is, say, 10% below industry standard and have his crack management team come up with a new seniority proposal that hits some middle ground. This could all be over in a week. But, as we East pilots have learned from our previous carpet baggers, it's all about money and all of management is enjoying their fat checks while laughing over beers at their employees and the advantage that they hold upon them.

thx for your post,
breeze

 

[aquagreen73s]

.....the East was shocked by the NIC and there was probably a big over reaction....but you have to consider that along with those facts, we were being screwed by ALPA National, along with some of the guys in the ALPA MEC, so the obvious thing was to separate from it all and vote ALPA out.

The West has been on the receiving end of a lot of anger from the East when little to none of it had to do with us. If you all on the East want to know why we're not objecting to the inevitable TRO being issued, it's all about neutering the union which has served as the vehicle to crush the West.

Friday is going to be ugly for USAPA.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Oh, so then if you sign a contract with the company and the conditions change, the company can break the contract?

Binding, it means binding. Live up to your agreements, or let others not live up to agreements with you.

Your first statement happens all the time. Please talk to your local friendly corporate lawyer type.

The agreement was supposed to be based on factual evidence and constrained by the agreements in effect, as well as the principles involved. Few, if any of the foundational principles turned out to be factual, in any way.

When you rent property, when the ownership changes hands, generally, the rental agreement changes also, subject to local laws, of course. (I know that for a fact) The arbitration is binding on the transition "agreement", something that is gone. Do you want to go there, where each party, the west or the east, can kill, by themselves, any merged agreement proposal. I would think that would lead to separate operations forever. At least, with USAPA, you would have a chance at a wide body, were you a crew member.