US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

The West has been on the receiving end of a lot of anger from the East when little to none of it had to do with us. If you all on the East want to know why we're not objecting to the inevitable TRO being issued, it's all about neutering the union which has served as the vehicle to crush the West.

Friday is going to be ugly for USAPA.

Crush the West... oh, the drama. Its like arterial bleeding out of both sides of your neck. The locust have swarmed your fields, the whirlwind has flattened your houses, and your women, children and horses have been carried away captive by swift marauders.

And you are the only one left to tell of the plunder upon your people. Alas.. Alas..

 

[luvn737s]

I have to agree with you.....the East was shocked by the NIC and there was probably a big over reaction....but you have to consider that along with those facts, we were being screwed by ALPA National, along with some of the guys in the ALPA MEC, so the obvious thing was to separate from it all and vote ALPA out. I am still not sure that that was the best route to take, but it sure seemed like the only path that made sense at the time. Unfortunately, USAPA has a lot of growing to do, so we shall see.

ALPA screwed you?? ALPA should have taken over both AWA and US MEC's and signed a joint contract immediately after the Nic came out. How can you confuse ALPA's codding of the temper tantrum babies at US with a screwing? The AWA pilots have a real beef with ALPA and how Prater's indecision lead to USAPA's birth.

Quit looking for Parker to be the labor leader that we pay Cleary to be. Cleary refuses, so USAPA needs to be replaced.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Crush the West... oh, the drama. Its like arterial bleeding out of both sides of your neck. The locust have swarmed your fields, the whirlwind has flattened your houses, and your women, children and horses have been carried away captive by swift marauders.

And you are the only one left to tell of the plunder upon your people. Alas.. Alas..

Too funny, and to the point. Drama seems to rule the west. At least, this one.

 

[Phoenix]

Completely false statement.....

What the DL/NW pilots did not have in ther merger was a bunch of reneging malcontents whose word is worthless, and after the fact make up lies to support their defensless position.

Obviously you are very disappointed that you did not get the Nic gift. Heck you might even be one of the TWA pilots that got hired and then furloughed from the East then hired by AWA (what a windfall the Nic appeared to be for them!)

If you stop and think for just a minute or two you will realize that you have something in common with the East. Your disdain for the East is of the exact same type of disdain the East has for ALPA, and rests on the exact same rationale.

 

[mrbreeze]

ALPA screwed you?? ALPA should have taken over both AWA and US MEC's and signed a joint contract immediately after the Nic came out. How can you confuse ALPA's codding of the temper tantrum babies at US with a screwing? The AWA pilots have a real beef with ALPA and how Prater's indecision lead to USAPA's birth.

Quit looking for Parker to be the labor leader that we pay Cleary to be. Cleary refuses, so USAPA needs to be replaced.

C'mon, open your tiny brain a little bit. ALPA had screwed us PRIOR to the NIC situation, causing a lot of mistrust, which, since we had had our fill of their lack of support BEFORE the merger, helped us to vote them off the property. The whole situation doesn't revolve on just the NIC alone.

I have no hope that Parker will ever do the right thing for his employees and I am not looking for him to do anything but cash his checks, while laughing with his pals at the country club, buying them all they can drink.

 

[luvn737s]

C'mon, open your tiny brain a little bit. ALPA had screwed us PRIOR to the NIC situation, causing a lot of mistrust, which, since we had had our fill of their lack of support BEFORE the merger, helped us to vote them off the property.

BULL! If the crybabies in the east were really fed up with ALPA, they would have voted them off the property long before the Nic came out. No, the east thought they were entitled to get their way and tried to see if they could bully their way through the arbitration and integration process.

It's a shame that the truth is so foreign to so many of you.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Quit looking for Parker to be the labor leader that we pay Cleary to be.

Too funny.

No one is "asking" Parker to do this. We are "telling" the drunk to do this.

Any alleged union "action" has not come from anyone in USAPA. This is pure grass-roots. You know, sorta like the tea baggers though the "on-board" folks know enough not to lick someone's "bags".

Try to acknowledge the possibility that a normal line pilot is willing to follow the AIM, FARS and FOM to the letter, something the westies seem to forget as well as not take shortcuts to hang their ticket on the line to "help out the company". Ef them. They cut mx to the bone, then cut some more. Let them live with the consequences of their decisions. Please.

This has nothing to do with judgement or revenge. It has everything to do with, okay, we will go along with your mgt. idiotic decisions, but, we reserve the right to ensure a guaranteed safe flight segment. Is it possible the west can get on-board with this?

I would be happy to testify how the non-thinking westies burn criminal amounts of fuel because they cannot seem to think. I don't think I need to make up for their moronic behavior by "saving fuel" just to support such lunacy.

See the logical end result, a safer airline. Do what you can to ensure that. Please.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

BULL! If the crybabies in the east were really fed up with ALPA, they would have voted them off the property long before the Nic came out.

Sport. Seniority equals experience. The east was willing to give up everything but that. When ALPA said to give that up we rebelled. The fact that ALPA took shots at us before does not belie the saying about the straw that broke the camels back.

I feel sad that the westies are the real victims here, simply because someone in ALPA National decided that the westies would never work a double aisle aircraft. It is simple, if you are willing to recognize reality.

The transition agreement stated that each party, the east or the west, must ratify any merger agreement. That means, with the "nic", there will never be a merged contract that would use the "nic" or not use it. Guaranteed.

At least USAPA gives you a chance simply because now it is a vote of the majority rather than either the east or the west with veto powers. ALPA national hated the west. That is obvious to me. If you take their money, (yeah, we know), then you are working against yourselves.

Have a good day.

 

[mrbreeze]

BULL! If the crybabies in the east were really fed up with ALPA, they would have voted them off the property long before the Nic came out. No, the east thought they were entitled to get their way and tried to see if they could bully their way through the arbitration and integration process.

It's a shame that the truth is so foreign to so many of you.

I know that you are pushing your agenda to reform USAPA....aren't you one of the guys pushing some kind of petition? You seem to be a retired ALPA rep. You have forgot to include that you are stating your opinion, which makes a big difference....and it is a biased opinion at best.

With the 2 BKs, loss of pension, warring factions in the ALPA MEC, the merger, etc....there were just a lot of things going on at the time. It was like a big ugly zit.....it finally came to a head and the NIC was the final pressure that united the East pilots to throw ALPA off the property.

That is the truth.....regardless of what you want to believe. Just because you believe something doesn't make it happen.

breeze

 

[nic4us]

Nic,

You underestimate the self respect that this pilot group has...that is why we are where we are today.

As far as earning respect......we gave up $9 billion, (personally, a 65% paycut due to a down grade). The company put that cash in their pockets and told us we were lucky to have a job...freakin BS return for our investment. You take even a 45% paycut, which was more in the norm, and tell me that you don't expect something in return, other than being told that you are lucky to have a job, getting screwed by the NIC to the point of never being back in the left seat before retiring, and having the company keep you on BK wages as long as possible. We didn't sign up for this kind of abuse....so we are where we are.

As far as respect for the West pilots.....I reallly believe that all the disrespect has been generated by the NIC with the way things have evolved since then. I don't think the disrespect was there before and it's too bad we can't rewind the clock. I went to FFDO training several yrs ago and met some great guys from AW, but the NIC has changed everything. He did no favors for any pilot or even the company. I can understand how previous DOH would come across as the West pilots feeling like they were facing being over run by the older pilot group...but, honestly, most of us had the wait and see attitude. However, we didn't expect to get screwed. Understand that through the BKs, we gave up everything that we had to ensure that our jobs would be there in the future....the ONLY thing that we had left was our seniority. That is why we are ready to do whatevedr it takes to get womething back out of our investment, instead of being told that we are lucky to have a job.

BIG difference from the NW/DL deal.

breeze

I can only sympathize with your predicament, and not fully understand it because I never had such a downgrade or payloss.

However, you said all you had left was your seniority, and that is exactly the point. You had your seniority, not mine.

My seniority held an A320 lineholding left seat. Nic said I get to keep the seniority to hold my position within the new company, that is all no more no less.

Nic did not cause the disrespect. The east MC came to the table with DOH, after being told by everybody involved it would not be a fair integration. The yellow "seniority is not for sale" lanyards, the DOH bag stickers.etc..etc. The east pilots never looked at a guy like me and said, now their is a A320 captain making more money than me on a better contract, they looked at me and though,,,I am going to be senior to him, regardless of the position they held. That is the lack of respect I am talking about.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

ALPA national hated the west. That is obvious to me.

To me to, since day one. They weren't above sending out the big guns, including Woerth himself, when they thought we needed our expectations 'adjusted.'

 

[traderjake]

Seniority equals experience.

Four pilot seniority arbrations in a row say you're wrong.

 

[Claxon]

This is great. I can just see a judge telling usapa that it's members are now 'required' to take broken aircraft and delay or not write them up when they know it is illegal to do so. Then the judge can tell usapa that their members must not call in fatigued or sick even though the company has understaffed the airline. Then they can 'require' a 'minimum speed for taxiing aircraft. Then they can dictate the minimum amount of fuel for dispatch regardless of weather or traffic. Yea, right. My guess is that it will just make it worse. Parker is in a no win situation with this filing. We have been doing alot for this company above and beyond the call of duty. How many of us have flown sick? How many have pushed the limits? Well, no longer. No one I know will do anything above the min and the min is set by the FOM.

Bottom line is that when you adhere to the FOM as stated, you will find that you have been doing things wrong and possibly illegally for a very long time and the company has come to believe that this is the norm. Now they expect you to hold write ups and to be in a hurry and to take short cuts and to do what is best for Doug Parker. This is no longer the norm and Parker and co. will now have to adjust to the new paradigm that they have been telling us about for years. Get used to it Doug. Ain't gonna get better any time soon regardless of your BS filings.

BTW; any one of us could have come up with that 'expert' witness report. Just because someone has lots of letters on his door does not make him an expert but I guess he becomes one when you pay him enough?

V

This is exactly what the disciples of Franke Air America West strive for. An airline structured by management, flown by robotron western pilots. A new world order. Then the gun gets turned on the western to their dismay.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I have to agree with you.....the East was shocked by the NIC and there was probably a big over reaction....but you have to consider that along with those facts, we were being screwed by ALPA National, along with some of the guys in the ALPA MEC, so the obvious thing was to separate from it all and vote ALPA out. I am still not sure that that was the best route to take, but it sure seemed like the only path that made sense at the time. Unfortunately, USAPA has a lot of growing to do, so we shall see.

Cooler heads could have prevailed...even today. Ya know, Parker could step up to the plate and end all of this today. He could offer a contract that is, say, 10% below industry standard and have his crack management team come up with a new seniority proposal that hits some middle ground. This could all be over in a week. But, as we East pilots have learned from our previous carpet baggers, it's all about money and all of management is enjoying their fat checks while laughing over beers at their employees and the advantage that they hold upon them.

thx for your post,
breeze

Lots of things fall in the coulda woulda shoulda category, for all of us. The best thing I think we can do at this point is just let events run their course and not kill each other(figuratively of course) in the mean time. That way when the time is right for a mutually beneficial way of moving forward, we'll have a firmer platform to work from.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

To me to, since day one. They weren't above sending out the big guns, including Woerth himself, when they thought we needed our expectations 'adjusted.'

So, why would any westie assume the "nic" ruling, in light of the "merger agreement", ever get to be the status quo? I am not arguing about seniority here but how the damn thing was structured. It, basically, guaranteed the present situation, giving all to the CEO. I realize it is circumstantial, but, damn, it sure seems to me that the drunk was in communication with the arbitrator and both the east and the west are being taken for rides. As a line swine my access is limited but a person I respect, Mr. Buffett, was the first to put my fears into words. The guy sees scams many of us would sooner forget.

Can we still "tar and feather" a drunk?