US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

2 years later...

1 pilot retires
Company will now recall most senior furloughee
Furloughee returns and takes seat that belonged to and continued to belong to him since the day he was hired.
Stapling furloughees to the bottom ignores this fact

I took the liberty of bolding the pertinent part.

Wrong, false, preposterous. The furloughee returns and takes the job no already working pilot wants. Obviously, given the number of pilots the East (old US) furloughed, that senior furloughee may have been senior 737/a320/even 757 FO when furloughed. He didn't hold that on the day he was hired did he? If the unwanted position left is the bottom E190 FO, he didn't hold that on the day he left necessarily, but that is the job he will return to. That's with no merged list and only the East DOH list. Why should it be different just because there was a merger?

Jim

 

[mrbreeze]

Parker is on no position to put together a list. He already has a list. He's stated and we've told him that the pilots are responsible for the SLI. And now you want him to fix it for you? Nope, not a chance.

And the way to fair wages is via a new contract. All this is nothing new. There are no shortcuts.

New contract with Nic means more money for all of us.

I disagree. When NIC was received by Parker and shortly after, USAPA took control, presenting Parker with a DOH list, he called time out. Things were getting out of control, so, HE CALLED TIME OUT IN THE WHOLE PROCESS.

I believe he has the ability to call "time in". He has continously stated that USair cannot compete at industry pay since we have a 10% yeild disadvantage compared to our competators.

So, he can approach USAPA with a new proposal, since USAPA is the only entity with a voice for the pilot group, East and West.

The new proposal is a wage that is 10% less than industry standard. In the mean time, he takes all his smart airline managers and spends a few bucks to find a SLI that is more in the middle between NIC and DOH.

He presents this all to USAPA and requests that it be put out for a vote, with the understanding that all lawsuits will be dropped.

It would pass. period.

The only problem is that Parker would see he and his country club buddy's bonuses stop and he would be required to actually run an airline instead of making money off the backs of his underpaid employee group.

That is why it will never happen. I think that is what Judge Silver's comment was about when she said to the company, "you know what you need to do".

breeze

 

[A320 Driver]

I took the liberty of bolding the pertinent part.

Wrong, false, preposterous. The furloughee returns and takes the job no already working pilot wants. Obviously, given the number of pilots the East (old US) furloughed, that senior furloughee may have been senior 737/a320/even 757 FO when furloughed. He didn't hold that on the day he was hired did he? If the unwanted position left is the bottom E190 FO, he didn't hold that on the day he left necessarily, but that is the job he will return to. That's with no merged list and only the East DOH list. Why should it be different just because there was a merger?

Jim

I don't disagree with what you are saying but you have to go further. You can't ignore the time that he/she has put into service here and the sacrifices made to keep the corporation going. I've never been furloughed, but that in itself is a huge sacrifice. There HAS to be some credit for length of service, but NOT a blank check to take someones bid as has been described here many times.

Just my opinion Jim.

Driver B)

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

I took the liberty of bolding the pertinent part.

Wrong, false, preposterous. The furloughee returns and takes the job no already working pilot wants. Obviously, given the number of pilots the East (old US) furloughed, that senior furloughee may have been senior 737/a320/even 757 FO when furloughed. He didn't hold that on the day he was hired did he? If the unwanted position left is the bottom E190 FO, he didn't hold that on the day he left necessarily, but that is the job he will return to. That's with no merged list and only the East DOH list. Why should it be different just because there was a merger?

Jim

I'm obviously not talking seat assignment, I'm talking jobs. I agree he would go to the bottom. I am saying that anticipating that retirement two years down the road, everyone would agree that the senior furloughee would return to fill the pilot vacancy (at the bottom) if the company chhoses to keep same head count. I am saying even though he is furloughed, he can watch his job and when a retirement takes place, he steps into it. It existed all along. the company must offer it to him before they offer it to anyone else, it is his job. I am not saying the merger has anything to do with this hypothetical, of course that complicates things, i am just saying , again, that a furloughee is not just a guy on the street, his position exists in the future if the company chooses to backfill or grow. Therefore to say a furloughee brings nothing is IMHO false and I think stapling them is wrong. Now i also think DOH is wrong when west 99 hires have uninterupted service but rather than finding some way to credit east furloughees for the future positions they would fill, nic staples them which is more in line with a straight LOS arangement. maybe when dates of hire merged on nics list, a two west to one east slotting would recognize LOS and also DOH but that didnt happen. I am talkin about 99 and later hires here and no other group.

 

[fodase]

The Nic. is a compromise, to say you want something between the Nic. and DOH just means the west loses more. If u want to re do the list, you have to go back to 2005 and use those pilot statuses to deliver a middle ground from there, oh wait we have already done that.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Just my opinion Jim.

And you don't have to agree with mine if you don't want. I was just pointing out that a single returning furloughee, as in AWE-Shucks example, probably wouldn't be in the position he left from when furloughed or return to that position when recalled. Even if there hadn't been a merger. Pre-merger furloughees returned to positions that no already working pilot bid - they wasn't any guarantee that it would be the position they were furloughed from and certainly no guarantee that it would be the position they were hired into.

Jim

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

The Nic. is a compromise, to say you want something between the Nic. and DOH just means the west loses more. If u want to re do the list, you have to go back to 2005 and use those pilot statuses to deliver a middle ground from there, oh wait we have already done that.

Nic is not middle of the road, that is the problem. If Nic is middle of the road, please describe the list you would have liked to see happen, if you were unwilling to compromise.

 

[cactusboy53]

What I described has nothing to do with CLEARY. It has to do with the company establishing a commission of individuals (read NOT USAPA and NOT AOL) to study, in partnership with senior management, the current paradigm and how the interests of both groups might be served going forward.

This has NOTHING to do with the ALPA process. We all know that nothing was ever going to come out of those previous negotiations because that would eliminate the fall guy (arbitrator) to place the blame on. I said people of courage WITH senior management. NOTHING similar to that has been tried.

Driver B)

Again, no one but USAPA has the right to negotiate with the company & visa versa. Any attempts will be futile. Sorry.

 

[A320 Driver]

And you don't have to agree with mine if you don't want. I was just pointing out that a single returning furloughee, as in AWE-Shucks example, probably wouldn't be in the position he left from when furloughed or return to that position when recalled. Even if there hadn't been a merger. Pre-merger furloughees returned to positions that no already working pilot bid - they wasn't any guarantee that it would be the position they were furloughed from and certainly no guarantee that it would be the position they were hired into.

Jim

I agree. Most of the furloughees have come back, at least temporarily, to the 190. How could anyone expect to walk in from furlough to the left seat?

Driver B)

 

[mrbreeze]

Tquote name='fodase' timestamp='1314311880' post='824767']
The Nic. is a compromise, to say you want something between the Nic. and DOH just means the west loses more. If u want to re do the list, you have to go back to 2005 and use those pilot statuses to deliver a middle ground from there, oh wait we have already done that.
[/quote]

Again, I disagree.

The NIC was flawed from the beginning via the way the Mid Atlantic pilots were not included. Also, at this point, you do not own the NIC, all you really have is your AW DOH, nothing has been written in stone.

If you are going to hold fast to the idea that your starting position is from the NIC, then the East will hold it's beginning position as DOH, getting all of us nowhere.

Parker has the ability to act on this.

breeze

 

[A320 Driver]

Again, no one but USAPA has the right to negotiate with the company & visa versa. Any attempts will be futile. Sorry.

LOL!!! That is because you want what you want (the NIC).

Strike cactusboy53 from the list of possible candidates to the joint commission.


😀 😛

 

[A320 Driver]

Again, I disagree.

The NIC was flawed from the beginning via the way the Mid Atlantic pilots were not included. Also, at this point, you do not own the NIC, all you really have is your AW DOH, nothing has been written in stone.

If you are going to hold fast to the idea that your starting position is from the NIC, then the East will hold it's beginning position as DOH, getting all of us nowhere.

Parker has the ability to act on this.

breeze

Thank you!

Going back to that point brings in a set of variables that I don't think you could overcome. Both sides are at minimum fleet count. There are going to be a lot of retirements over the next few years that can advance both groups substantially. But, IMO, if either group wins the current battle, we all lose in the end.

We need a new approach and senior management is going to HAVE to get their hands dirty.

Driver B)

I'm worn out now...going to get dinner! 🙂

 

[BoeingBoy]

The company isn't going to do anything that could get them sued. A "middle ground" could have pilots from both sides suing them and they're not about to grab that hot potato. A court is going to have to end this one way or the other. Oh, and Driver, the East is technically at min fleet count but has more airframes than the min fleet count specifies - the E190's.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

Regrettably it's neither. After witnessing the West behavior over the past few years and especially the May video, I've reached the conclusion that none of them are ever getting on a flight deck with me.

Did you mean to say that you would never get on a flight deck with a West pilot?

Big difference.

The way you stated it, made it sound like you had any choice in the matter, and a means to deny the West access in a future scenario. The only way you would have a choice is to remove yourself.

Just thought I would once again point out that the east typically has no clue of the situation they find themselves in.

One more thing, there are West pilots flying on the east right now. Be sure to say hi.

 

[BoeingBoy]

True to form Jim - thanks for the nonanswer

I gave you my opinion for the question you asked and the question you said you meant. What more do you want other than total submission to your wishes?

No, the Judge hasn't ruled on the class request. But you didn't use the word "ruled" in your question, did you? You used "approved" and I told you my opinion - she's approved the class but hasn't gotten around to ruling yet.

So let me ask you. Did the judge accept the company's filings, despite them including the class? Has she given any - ANY - indication that she doesn't see the West pilots as a class?

Jim