US Pilots Labor Discussion

[mrbreeze]

I am really curious as to why you think Doug Parker will involve himself in what he has time and again said is a matter between the two pilot groups.

There is no economic benefit to the company for him to act outside the legal processes that are in motion. From a labor relations standpoint , the existing situation couldn't have been scripted better in management's favor. Pilots vs. Pilots and no unified front for self help, if it ever comes to that. Why would he change his tune now?

I think you're right. Time WILL tell. But years from now after all the lawsuits and appeals have ended and the final Judge says-This is it. We have a winner.

1- Pressure from the public and FAA on safety issues since the East pilots have quit being the water boy for management.

2- Pressure in the area of on time performance and loss of revenue.

3- Loss of the wonderful bonuses to all the management boys

4- Pressure from the board of directors to get things under control

5- Mergers do not happen if you don't have your house in order.

breeze

oh yeah....and dudes in rain suits at the crew room visits.

 

[A320 Driver]

I am really curious as to why you think Doug Parker will involve himself in what he has time and again said is a matter between the two pilot groups.

There is no economic benefit to the company for him to act outside the legal processes that are in motion. From a labor relations standpoint , the existing situation couldn't have been scripted better in management's favor. Pilots vs. Pilots and no unified front for self help, if it ever comes to that. Why would he change his tune now?

I think you're right. Time WILL tell. But years from now after all the lawsuits and appeals have ended and the final Judge says-This is it. We have a winner.

OK, I'll tell you. Up until the last round of meetings in CLT, he was very "matter of fact" about the time it would take for this whole mess to weave it's way through the court system. Watching him this last time, he seemed more animated and at one point, a little alarmed at the prospects of 2 1/2 more years of litigation to end up...where? A lot of things can happen in 2 1/2 years and not many of them good. The economy, yields way down if you compare year over year 2nd quarter earnings. And finally, the last merger train is going to leave the station at some point, and Parker wants to be on it. Can't do it with LCC in the current condition.

MAYBE it would have been better to negotiate a contract with DOH in it, combine the units East and West, take the remaining synergies and let the West cry foul over one section of it...section 22. BUT, in the meantime enjoy the benefits the rest of the contract would give you.

Hey, the whole thing is a guess, a feeling. I don't know how else to explain it.

Oh, one last thing... either way the judge rules, almost 1/2 of your pilot group is REALLY ticked. You can't really call that a win.

Driver B)

Sorry Breeze, didn't mean to repeat...I type slower than you do. 😛

 

[mrbreeze]

OK, I'll tell you. Up until the last round of meetings in CLT, he was very "matter of fact" about the time it would take for this whole mess to weave it's way through the court system. Watching him this last time, he seemed more animated and at one point, a little alarmed at the prospects of 2 1/2 more years of litigation to end up...where? A lot of things can happen in 2 1/2 years and not many of them good. The economy, yields way down if you compare year over year 2nd quarter earnings. And finally, the last merger train is going to leave the station at some point, and Parker wants to be on it. Can't do it with LCC in the current condition.

MAYBE it would have been better to negotiate a contract with DOH in it, combine the units East and West, take the remaining synergies and let the West cry foul over one section of it...section 22. BUT, in the meantime enjoy the benefits the rest of the contract would give you.

Hey, the whole thing is a guess, a feeling. I don't know how else to explain it.

Oh, one last thing... either way the judge rules, almost 1/2 of your pilot group is REALLY ticked. You can't really call that a win.

Driver B)

Sorry Breeze, didn't mean to repeat...I type slower than you do. 😛

Not a problem.....actually I will leave it with you. Jet lag is setting and I have probly run my mouth enough for one night. 😉

 

[SparrowHawk]

No emotions about it

Flew a full airplane into Phoenix the other day with ZERO pax going there - all connections that can easily be run over Denver, Dallas or Salt Lake.

Like the Wall Street Journal said the other day " there is a merger in the future but nobody wants a Phoenix hub".

OK, I'm a bit confused. I'm not a pilot I'm a customer who somehow became a bit of an aviation junkie.

I read what you read, I'm just a bit confused as to your point? This thread generally deals with the specific nature of the current situation with USAPA, the Company and the AoL?

So what exactly are you trying to say? Go easy I'm just a customer trying to make sense of the senseless

 

[BoeingBoy]

Read your own material Jim

Yeah, see that "approved".....I didn't say more than I meant. Speaking of non-answers, though, I see you haven't answered my questions.

Jim

 

[N924PS]

OK, I'll tell you. Up until the last round of meetings in CLT, he was very "matter of fact" about the time it would take for this whole mess to weave it's way through the court system. Watching him this last time, he seemed more animated and at one point, a little alarmed at the prospects of 2 1/2 more years of litigation to end up...where? A lot of things can happen in 2 1/2 years and not many of them good. The economy, yields way down if you compare year over year 2nd quarter earnings. And finally, the last merger train is going to leave the station at some point, and Parker wants to be on it. Can't do it with LCC in the current condition.

MAYBE it would have been better to negotiate a contract with DOH in it, combine the units East and West, take the remaining synergies and let the West cry foul over one section of it...section 22. BUT, in the meantime enjoy the benefits the rest of the contract would give you.

Hey, the whole thing is a guess, a feeling. I don't know how else to explain it.

Oh, one last thing... either way the judge rules, almost 1/2 of your pilot group is REALLY ticked. You can't really call that a win.

Driver B)

Sorry Breeze, didn't mean to repeat...I type slower than you do. 😛

I have noticed Mr. Parker has become increasingly uncomfortable in front of the respective pilot groups lately. Admittedly, he is up against a hostile crowd, but as CEO, you think his public speaking skills would be better honed.

My guess or feeling is that this will continue as it has for years to come. Any pilot 58 or older is likely to retire under LOA 93 and many as First Officers. At the end of the day, I expect this battle will have cost each side many millions of dollars with the outcome ultimately being the Nicolau Award. That has been my gut feeling since I attended the USAPA organizing meeting in PHL and saw Lee Seeham's pitch.

There are no winners here except for senior management, the lawyers, and the USAPA FPL'ers. Kinda like ALPA don't you think?

 

[BoeingBoy]

You say Parker won't get involved. I think he has to. Time will tell I guess.

In a sense, you've gotten your wish. The DJ request, the injunction request. Parker is getting involved, just not wielding the seniority hammer. He'll let a judge (or judges in the appeal) do the dirty work.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

You're probably right....Parker's attorneys told him to call time out, but as far as the DOH list being illegal, that is just your opinion. Parker called time out because they realized the magintude of what was taking place at the time.

How does a younger West pilot have his career destroyed by waiting 5 yrs to upgrade when they are 30-35 yrs old, then spend another 30 yrs at Cpt rates? Consider that an East pilot with only 5 yrs left has his career destroyed by putting some younger West pilot ahead of him, occupying the left seat that he lost when 101 jets were parked after 9/11, not allowing him to get back into the left seat that he used to have, forcing retirement from the right seat. That is greed my friend.

Maybe you think it is a hollow issue, but that is where the problem lies. It's a huge issue for the East pilots...you need to learn that.

breeze

the "younger west pilot is not 30-35, he is 48-55, and is going to tell you he will take the 5 year delay to the Nic over DOH.

How many West pilots do you suppose are over 60, right now? I heard the east has like 450, or more. I think the number on the West is like 150. that is roughly 10 percent. we are not talking about 30 years left. I was amazed at how young the audience was in the CLT crew news.

I completely understand that a 55 year old east pilot wants my position, and would stoop as low as to try and steal it from me by listening to the little lawyer and trying to renege on a deal. Further, I really do not care how many airplanes AAA parked, or what your problems were there. Your sacrifice at AAA had nothing to do with me. Your dealing with me started in 2005, and the arbitrator ruled, end of story.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So what exactly are you trying to say? Go easy I'm just a customer trying to make sense of the senseless

Well, I'd say that it means that the East talk about splitting this place up into it's original 2 pieces is absurd - that would be a sure recipe for liquidation, or 2 liquidations.

But that's probably not what 8 - 3 meant. On that, I'm at as much of a loss as you.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

I have noticed Mr. Parker has become increasingly uncomfortable in front of the respective pilot groups lately. Admittedly, he is up against a hostle crowd, but as CEO, you think his public speaking skills would be better honed.

My guess or feeling is that this will continue as it has for years to come. Any pilot 58 or older is likely to retire under LOA 93 and many as First Officers. At the end of the day, I expect this battle will have cost each side many millions of dollars with the outcome ultimately being the Nicolau Award. That has been my gut feeling since I attended the USAPA organizing meeting in PHL and saw Lee Seeham's pitch.

There are no winners here except for senior management and the USAPA FPL'ers. Kinda like ALPA don't you think?

You left out the biggest winner of all, The little union busting lawyer who has billed what? I lost track, are we up to $8 million yet?

All in defense of n opinion he alone holds, or does he? He is argues the opposite for the SWA mechanics and the TWA pilots.

 

[8 to 3]

Well, I'd say that it means that the East talk about splitting this place up into it's original 2 pieces is absurd - that would be a sure recipe for liquidation, or 2 liquidations.

But that's probably not what 8 - 3 meant. On that, I'm at as much of a loss as you.

Jim
737 type rating makes you an expert on wall street?

 

[Move2CLT]

You say Parker won't get involved. I think he has to. Time will tell I guess.

Driver B)

I know for a fact he won't get involved.

If he's the savior you're looking for then you need to look elsewhere. Oh the irony of seeing the east hope for Parker's help.

 

[luvthe9]

Kinda like ALPA don't you think?

No, not really USAPA did not give my pension away in the middle of the night without a vote or give me a 45% paycut and LOA 93, that was ALPA.

 

[Move2CLT]

No emotions about it

Flew a full airplane into Phoenix the other day with ZERO pax going there - all connections that can easily be run over Denver, Dallas or Salt Lake.

Like the Wall Street Journal said the other day " there is a merger in the future but nobody wants a Phoenix hub".

Ah yes, another pilot with skills in routing and marketing. When a pilot starts taking about the business side of an airline, turn around and walk away.

I once took an airplane to PHL and every single passenger was connecting somewhere else. We need to shut down PHL. See, I can play that game too.

 

[N924PS]

No, not really USAPA did not give my pension away in the middle of the night without a vote or give me a 45% paycut and LOA 93, that was ALPA.

A majority of East pilots voted in favor of LOA 93. The same democratic process that brought us USAPA.

I agree with you on the pension issue.

Even with the loss of the pension under ALPA, I submit if the seniority list integration had been favorable to the East position, ALPA would still be our CBA.