US Pilots Labor Discussion

[mrbreeze]

The company isn't going to do anything that could get them sued. A "middle ground" could have pilots from both sides suing them and they're not about to grab that hot potato. A court is going to have to end this one way or the other. Oh, and Driver, the East is technically at min fleet count but has more airframes than the min fleet count specifies - the E190's.

Jim

So, let's say that in this case the company comes up with a SLI that very much seeks to fairly represent all the pilots and has the backing of the union (also backed up by a majority vote), which is the legal representative for all pilots, along with the fact that the company is showing the courts that they are seeking resolution to all legal problems.

Where is the DFR in that?

breeze

 

[BoeingBoy]

So, let's say that in this case the company comes up with a SLI that very much seeks to fairly represent all the pilots and has the backing of the union (also backed up by a majority vote), which is the legal representative for all pilots, along with the fact that the company is showing the courts that they are seeking resolution to all legal problems.

Where is the DFR in that?

breeze

To paraphrase the 9th, USAPA may come up with a seniority settlement that doesn't harm the West as they fear, even if it's not the Nic. So why do you need the company to come up with a solution - USAPA's got the roadmap to a solution in that one sentence. Do you think having the company make a proposal will keep USAPA and the company from being sued?

The DFR is where it's always been since the 9th's ruling - waiting in the wings. Of course East posters want a "middle ground" because USAPA's constitution means it starts from DOH. So how about this - the company proposes that the Nic list (which meets both the joint statement of labor principals and the company's requirements in the TA) be used but has the C&R's that USAPA has proposed for the West protecting the East instead. Better for East than pure Nic. Worse for West than pure Nic. So more "fair". Would you vote for it? Would USAPA even put it out for a vote, never mind endorse ratification?

Jim

 

[nic4us]

So, let's say that in this case the company comes up with a SLI that very much seeks to fairly represent all the pilots and has the backing of the union (also backed up by a majority vote), which is the legal representative for all pilots, along with the fact that the company is showing the courts that they are seeking resolution to all legal problems.

Where is the DFR in that?

breeze

The "hybrid-DFR" is in the fact that the company itself would have reneged on the TA, threw the West under the bus, and is now liable with usapa for damages.

Will not happen. The company has a contractual commitment in the TA to use the seniority list they already accepted. Breach the contract, and they are tied at the hip with the "majority vote" that decided to screw the West.

I really do not see what is so hard for you guys to understand. Final and binding arbitration is just that, the Nic is not going away unless the West decides to let it go. So far, the West is telling you we are not letting go. Oh, and 4 federal judges have told you the same thing.

 

[mrbreeze]

To paraphrase the 9th, USAPA may come up with a seniority settlement that doesn't harm the West as they fear, even if it's not the Nic. So why do you need the company to come up with a solution - USAPA's got the roadmap to a solution in that one sentence. Do you think having the company make a proposal will keep USAPA and the company from being sued?

The DFR is where it's always been since the 9th's ruling - waiting in the wings. Of course East posters want a "middle ground" because USAPA's constitution means it starts from DOH. So how about this - the company proposes that the Nic list (which meets both the joint statement of labor principals and the company's requirements in the TA) be used but has the C&R's that USAPA has proposed for the West but protecting the East instead. Better for East than pure Nic. Worse for West than pure Nic. So more "fair". Would you vote for it? Would USAPA even put it out for a vote, never mind endorse ratification?

Jim

Jim,

I would have to give that proposal a good look and think it has merit, depending on the details. However, I think it leaves room for West and East friction and suspicions. At that point we still have to negotiate a contract with the company, so, IMHO, it's still a long time before a new contract is reached with the company.

Having Parker step up to the plate and give it his best shot is much cleaner and quicker.

breeze

 

[mrbreeze]

The "hybrid-DFR" is in the fact that the company itself would have reneged on the TA, threw the West under the bus, and is now liable with usapa for damages.

Will not happen. The company has a contractual commitment in the TA to use the seniority list they already accepted. Breach the contract, and they are tied at the hip with the "majority vote" that decided to screw the West.

I really do not see what is so hard for you guys to understand. Final and binding arbitration is just that, the Nic is not going away unless the West decides to let it go. So far, the West is telling you we are not letting go. Oh, and 4 federal judges have told you the same thing.

nic

OK, draw that line if you just have to, but we will draw our line at DOH, which doesn't solve a thing.

The only reason Parker didn't accept the DOH list from USAPA is that things were getting out of control and he called time out, which gets back to my original point. He can call time in and fix this mess.

If you guys insist on accepting nothing less than the NIC or the company gets slapped with a DFR........ the East pilots can just as well stand on accepting nothing less than DOH with the threat of DFR. It's a 2 way street.

I really believe that Parker can fix all this if he just would.

Also, most of us have just about 5-6 yrs left, so if you are not willing to find some middle ground, knowing that you will own it all in a few years, that just can only be interpeted as greed, instead of trying to work something out.

breeze

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim,

I would have to give that proposal a good look and think it has merit, depending on the details. However, I think it leaves room for West and East friction and suspicions. At that point we still have to negotiate a contract with the company, so, IMHO, it's still a long time before a new contract is reached with the company.

Having Parker step up to the plate and give it his best shot is much cleaner and quicker.

breeze

Well, the Nic list and USAPA's proposals have been out there for over 4 years and over 3 years respectively, so what details? I just gave you an example of Parker stepping up and giving it his best shot, but you seem to still think it'd take a long time to get a contract. Then the DFR would start all over again. So much for cleaner and quicker I guess.

The one thing I'll admit is that if Parker proposed something "fair to both sides" that USAPA would accept USAPA would have a clearer picture of the seniority landscape - the Nic list, negotiate for every bennie to be based on DOH (here comes DFR suit). A DOH based list, negotiate for the bennies to be based on position held (here come the DFR again). In my opinion that's why negotiations haven't gotten to the major sections yet - USAPA wants to see the lay of the seniority land first. Remember what the 9th said. Anything that harms the west as they fear results in a DFR.

If you think Parker is going to climb into that can of worms you're mistaken. He'll sit back, negotiating other parts of the contract, and wait for a judge to take the heat. Any responsible CEO would do the same. If Parker gets US sued over this, any stockholder could file a suit for not upholding his fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders against him personally.

Jim

 

[8 to 3]

PullUp has obviously forgotten that those 6 are only a small fraction of the class approved by the court. They are the named plaintiffs, not the entire group of plaintiffs.

And in the above quote, I think you meant "without Nic"...

Jim

Read your own material Jim

 

[A320 Driver]

If you think Parker is going to climb into that can of worms you're mistaken. He'll sit back, negotiating other parts of the contract, and wait for a judge to take the heat. Any responsible CEO would do the same. If Parker gets US sued over this, any stockholder could file a suit for not upholding his fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders against him personally.
Jim

You say Parker won't get involved. I think he has to. Time will tell I guess.

Driver B)

 

[8 to 3]

The way you stated it, made it sound like you had any choice in the matter, and a means to deny the West access in a future scenario. The only way you would have a choice is to remove yourself.

Just thought I would once again point out that the east typically has no clue of the situation they find themselves in.

One more thing, there are West pilots flying on the east right now. Be sure to say hi.
[/quote]

Ah, the AOL sales Reps are out today. Stay on them till they buy or die!

8 to 3 bubba - but I'll be sure to say hello to the 4 ( or is it 8 ) on the East.

 

[nic4us]

nic

OK, draw that line if you just have to, but we will draw our line at DOH, which doesn't solve a thing.

The only reason Parker didn't accept the DOH list from USAPA is that things were getting out of control and he called time out, which gets back to my original point. He can call time in and fix this mess.

If you guys insist on accepting nothing less than the NIC or the company gets slapped with a DFR........ the East pilots can just as well stand on accepting nothing less than DOH with the threat of DFR. It's a 2 way street.

I really believe that Parker can fix all this if he just would.

Also, most of us have just about 5-6 yrs left, so if you are not willing to find some middle ground, knowing that you will own it all in a few years, that just can only be interpeted as greed, instead of trying to work something out.

breeze

The reason Parker did not accept usapa's DOH list is because his lawyers told him not to touch it. It is an illegal list, and the company wants no part of it.


Breeze, do you understand that when you tell me that most of you only have 5-6 years left, that is a completely hollow issue? For older West pilots it means nothing, and for younger West pilots it means they can either have their careers destroyed, or wait 5 years and stick the Nic in the remaining unions rear, with seperate ops in the interim.

 

[8 to 3]

Did you refer to the 24% of you flying block hours on the East system because you no longer have jobs in Phoenix or the junior couple guys whi will have jobs on the East when the next merger happens?

 

[mrbreeze]

The reason Parker did not accept usapa's DOH list is because his lawyers told him not to touch it. It is an illegal list, and the company wants no part of it.


Breeze, do you understand that when you tell me that most of you only have 5-6 years left, that is a completely hollow issue? For older West pilots it means nothing, and for younger West pilots it means they can either have their careers destroyed, or wait 5 years and stick the Nic in the remaining unions rear, with seperate ops in the interim.

You're probably right....Parker's attorneys told him to call time out, but as far as the DOH list being illegal, that is just your opinion. Parker called time out because they realized the magintude of what was taking place at the time.

How does a younger West pilot have his career destroyed by waiting 5 yrs to upgrade when they are 30-35 yrs old, then spend another 30 yrs at Cpt rates? Consider that an East pilot with only 5 yrs left has his career destroyed by putting some younger West pilot ahead of him, occupying the left seat that he lost when 101 jets were parked after 9/11, not allowing him to get back into the left seat that he used to have, forcing retirement from the right seat. That is greed my friend.

Maybe you think it is a hollow issue, but that is where the problem lies. It's a huge issue for the East pilots...you need to learn that.

breeze

 

[SparrowHawk]

Regrettably it's neither. After witnessing the West behavior over the past few years and especially the May video, I've reached the conclusion that none of them are ever getting on a flight deck with me.

I hear you! Emotions run high and hot. Totally get that, I sincerely do.

However, I'd argue that all of the posturing, legal wrangling and the like is a bridge to far. Perhaps it's time to hold your nose and pick a solution that "Sucks Less"? Curious as to your thoughts

 

[N924PS]

You say Parker won't get involved. I think he has to. Time will tell I guess.

Driver B)

I am really curious as to why you think Doug Parker will involve himself in what he has time and again said is a matter between the two pilot groups.

There is no economic benefit to the company for him to act outside the legal processes that are in motion. From a labor relations standpoint , the existing situation couldn't have been scripted better in management's favor. Pilots vs. Pilots and no unified front for self help, if it ever comes to that. Why would he change his tune now?

I think you're right. Time WILL tell. But years from now after all the lawsuits and appeals have ended and the final Judge says-This is it. We have a winner.

 

[8 to 3]

I hear you! Emotions run high and hot. Totally get that, I sincerely do.

However, I'd argue that all of the posturing, legal wrangling and the like is a bridge to far. Perhaps it's time to hold your nose and pick a solution that "Sucks Less"? Curious as to your thoughts

No emotions about it

Flew a full airplane into Phoenix the other day with ZERO pax going there - all connections that can easily be run over Denver, Dallas or Salt Lake.

Like the Wall Street Journal said the other day " there is a merger in the future but nobody wants a Phoenix hub".