US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

No, not really USAPA did not give my pension away in the middle of the night without a vote or give me a 45% paycut and LOA 93, that was ALPA.

True, but USAPA doesn't get you DOH or a new contract either. And as a bonus, it keeps you on LOA 93.

And, for the record, you guys did vote in LOA 93. Remember your rule of the majority? Let me guess, you voted no.

 

[Move2CLT]

I hear you! Emotions run high and hot. Totally get that, I sincerely do.

However, I'd argue that all of the posturing, legal wrangling and the like is a bridge to far. Perhaps it's time to hold your nose and pick a solution that "Sucks Less"? Curious as to your thoughts

How would you pick a solution?

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

Hypothetical

Company has 500 pilots, only needs 475
furloughs 25
In 2 years most senior pilot will retire
Company will have to recall most senior furloughee if they intend to fill that position
That job belongs to the most senior furloughee two years from now.

2 years later...

1 pilot retires
Company will now recall most senior furloughee
Furloughee returns and takes seat that belonged to and continued to belong to him since the day he was hired.
Stapling furloughees to the bottom ignores this fact

Now before you guys, with the limited cognitive power to process this, start ranting, let me just say that i already realize that this oversimplification ignores so many of the relevant facts that also affect the status of said individuals. It is still a fact that flies in the face of the often declared statement that a furloughee brings nothing to a merger.

I'm obviously not talking seat assignment, I'm talking jobs. I agree he would go to the bottom. I am saying that anticipating that retirement two years down the road, everyone would agree that the senior furloughee would return to fill the pilot vacancy (at the bottom) if the company chhoses to keep same head count. I am saying even though he is furloughed, he can watch his job and when a retirement takes place, he steps into it. It existed all along. the company must offer it to him before they offer it to anyone else, it is his job. I am not saying the merger has anything to do with this hypothetical, of course that complicates things, i am just saying , again, that a furloughee is not just a guy on the street, his position exists in the future if the company chooses to backfill or grow. Therefore to say a furloughee brings nothing is IMHO false and I think stapling them is wrong. Now i also think DOH is wrong when west 99 hires have uninterupted service but rather than finding some way to credit east furloughees for the future positions they would fill, nic staples them which is more in line with a straight LOS arangement. maybe when dates of hire merged on nics list, a two west to one east slotting would recognize LOS and also DOH but that didnt happen. I am talkin about 99 and later hires here and no other group.



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[Move2CLT]

OK, I'll tell you. Up until the last round of meetings in CLT, he was very "matter of fact" about the time it would take for this whole mess to weave it's way through the court system. Watching him this last time, he seemed more animated and at one point, a little alarmed at the prospects of 2 1/2 more years of litigation to end up...where? A lot of things can happen in 2 1/2 years and not many of them good. The economy, yields way down if you compare year over year 2nd quarter earnings. And finally, the last merger train is going to leave the station at some point, and Parker wants to be on it. Can't do it with LCC in the current condition.

MAYBE it would have been better to negotiate a contract with DOH in it, combine the units East and West, take the remaining synergies and let the West cry foul over one section of it...section 22. BUT, in the meantime enjoy the benefits the rest of the contract would give you.

Hey, the whole thing is a guess, a feeling. I don't know how else to explain it.

Oh, one last thing... either way the judge rules, almost 1/2 of your pilot group is REALLY ticked. You can't really call that a win.

Driver B)

Sorry Breeze, didn't mean to repeat...I type slower than you do. 😛

Or maybe it would have been better to negotiate a contract with Nic in it.

And that whole thing is not a guess, it's final and binding.

 

[jetjok1]

I disagree. When NIC was received by Parker and shortly after, USAPA took control, presenting Parker with a DOH list, he called time out. Things were getting out of control, so, HE CALLED TIME OUT IN THE WHOLE PROCESS.

I believe he has the ability to call "time in". He has continously stated that USair cannot compete at industry pay since we have a 10% yeild disadvantage compared to our competators.

So, he can approach USAPA with a new proposal, since USAPA is the only entity with a voice for the pilot group, East and West.

The new proposal is a wage that is 10% less than industry standard. In the mean time, he takes all his smart airline managers and spends a few bucks to find a SLI that is more in the middle between NIC and DOH.

He presents this all to USAPA and requests that it be put out for a vote, with the understanding that all lawsuits will be dropped.

It would pass. period.
















The only problem is that Parker would see he and his country club buddy's bonuses stop and he would be required to actually run an airline instead of making money off the backs of his underpaid employee group.


Breeze,


I disagree......No way would I except 10% below industry standard. He's had enough time with LOA 93 to stuff his coffers with 10% above industry standard. Besides, I don't trust or believe what he says anyway. He's a DUI delinquent that has no respect of mine.

That is why it will never happen. I think that is what Judge Silver's comment was about when she said to the company, "you know what you need to do".

 

[Move2CLT]

nic

OK, draw that line if you just have to, but we will draw our line at DOH, which doesn't solve a thing.

The only reason Parker didn't accept the DOH list from USAPA is that things were getting out of control and he called time out, which gets back to my original point. He can call time in and fix this mess.

If you guys insist on accepting nothing less than the NIC or the company gets slapped with a DFR........ the East pilots can just as well stand on accepting nothing less than DOH with the threat of DFR. It's a 2 way street.

I really believe that Parker can fix all this if he just would.

Also, most of us have just about 5-6 yrs left, so if you are not willing to find some middle ground, knowing that you will own it all in a few years, that just can only be interpeted as greed, instead of trying to work something out.

breeze

Nothing was getting out of control. That's a lie. Your NAC pushed it across the table and it was pushed back with a no thank you we already have a list that has met our requirements.

You guys have no basis for a DFR - zero. That you can confirm with your own union. That question was brought up by an east pilot and the answer was that your C&Rs are a worthless defense. Nice try. Fish elsewhere.

Parker will only try and buy his way out of this. The most he will tell you is the Nic is it. The rest is up to you.

And I hope you've planned on retiring under LOA93. Two and a half years for the courts, another year for negs, 18 month for implementation and wham, adios you're done. Hope it was all worth it.

 

[Move2CLT]

Nic is not middle of the road, that is the problem. If Nic is middle of the road, please describe the list you would have liked to see happen, if you were unwilling to compromise.

We wanted to staple you.

 

[Move2CLT]

LOL!!! That is because you want what you want (the NIC).

Strike cactusboy53 from the list of possible candidates to the joint commission.


😀 😛

Negotiations failed.
Mediation failed.
Arbitration was imposed.

Process completed.

It's done. No more talks. Nic is it. What are you going to do about it? Stay on LOA 93? Ooooh I'm scared.

 

[Move2CLT]

You're probably right....Parker's attorneys told him to call time out, but as far as the DOH list being illegal, that is just your opinion. Parker called time out because they realized the magintude of what was taking place at the time.

How does a younger West pilot have his career destroyed by waiting 5 yrs to upgrade when they are 30-35 yrs old, then spend another 30 yrs at Cpt rates? Consider that an East pilot with only 5 yrs left has his career destroyed by putting some younger West pilot ahead of him, occupying the left seat that he lost when 101 jets were parked after 9/11, not allowing him to get back into the left seat that he used to have, forcing retirement from the right seat. That is greed my friend.

Maybe you think it is a hollow issue, but that is where the problem lies. It's a huge issue for the East pilots...you need to learn that.

breeze

Your problem, not mine.

 

[Phoenix]

Nicolau did exactly what was needed ....

ALPA outsourced the hard work of creating a seniority list and assumed they could outsource/delegate their own responsibility as well. They found out the hard way their responsibility can never be delegated. Nicolau didn't lose so much as a hair on his head.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim
737 type rating makes you an expert on wall street?

Don't you know that there are any experts on Wall St? If they were they wouldn't be on Wall St but on their own private island somewhere....

As you succinctly pointed out, each side of US relies on traffic collected and fed to it from the other side. Sever that and it's back to bankruptcy and liquidation. Simple. If the East dream of splitting the two parts had any merit, AA would have bought US in BK 2 (note that they didn't even make an offer) and Republic would HP out of the bankruptcy and would now be exactly where they are - trying to spin off HP instead of trying to spin off F9. Remove the emotional goggles and that's simple too.

Still waiting for those answers by the way.

Jim

 

[SparrowHawk]

How would you pick a solution?

I'm reluctant to speak as it's not my place really. However since you asked and since I did give it some thought I'll likely show my ignorance but what the hell, we're all friends right? Funny thing is this occurred to me this morning.

If I understand, the issue of seniority is one of fairness. NOT strict seniority. So here is my proposal.

Top 10 to 15 percent of the HP & US seniority list are integrated based upon DOH Seniority.

The balance of 85% are "feathered" via a Nic like formula with considerations (fences) based upon hub locations.

OK, you may line up and shoot me now!

 

[Move2CLT]

I'm reluctant to speak as it's not my place really. However since you asked and since I did give it some thought I'll likely show my ignorance but what the hell, we're all friends right? Funny thing is this occurred to me this morning.

If I understand, the issue of seniority is one of fairness. NOT strict seniority. So here is my proposal.

Top 10 to 15 percent of the HP & US seniority list are integrated based upon DOH Seniority.

The balance of 85% are "feathered" via a Nic like formula with considerations (fences) based upon hub locations.

OK, you may line up and shoot me now!

How about this. Top 500ish go to east pilots only. After that it's relative seniority.

 

[SparrowHawk]

How about this. Top 500ish go to east pilots only. After that it's relative seniority.

Isn't that essentially Nic? I don't think that's fair either.

Let me throw this at you. Hub based seniority??? PHL/CLT gets to keep what they had, same for PHX. If you decide to relocate as your screen name suggests then you're integrated based on DOH in CLT?

 

[Move2CLT]

What if you're forced into a domicile?

What if you're a Captain and your forced out of your base but your seniority ther only holds FO?