US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

For the west

Would you be willing to move off the Nic? Would you pursue or support a DFR against USAPA if the majority of west pilots were willing to move off the Nic? If you are certain the Nic will eventually prevail in court, are you satisfied with staying the course or exploring an alternative solution sooner?

Plenty more questions could be asked. I think we should know what all the pilots are thinking today. The last CLT election indicated very low participation. There is a growing silent majority out there that needs to be heard.

I don't know why you east guys cannot grasp the fact that there is no moving off the Nic. There is no one to negotiate any moves, period.

So, to answer your questions: NO moving off the Nic and we'll stay the course. No need to keep asking these silly questions. Nic is it and that's it.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Great post. Here is one man's opinion:
1. Keep things status quo, let the courts decide where things must go (because without that direction there is no way the east will budge off their DOH fantasy). It will add finality to the question of whether binding arbitration is truly binding.
2. By keeping #1 above you get to keep PHX the size it is hence no PSA-ing of our domicile.
3. By keeping #1 above we get to keep the benefits of our contract realizing that although it is not great it certainly is better than what the third- rate NAC can ever produce.
4. Retirements are kicking in soon for both sides, just about every one out west will be from the left seat.
5. Eventually, time is on the west's side.

Peace.

Respect you opinion. The point is to get about 4800 more. More important, to determine if the majority of all of us, combined, wish to remain status quo, or explore a mutually acceptable short cut.

BTW, until this SLI issue is resolved, those who think we can get a contract now and deal with seniority or DFR later are fooling themselves. At one time I thought otherwise, but with the DJ going forward, the die is cast.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I don't know why you east guys cannot grasp the fact that there is no moving off the Nic. There is no one to negotiate any moves, period.

So, to answer your questions: NO moving off the Nic and we'll stay the course. No need to keep asking these silly questions. Nic is it and that's it.

Respect your opinion. The point is to get 4799 more.

 

[prechilill]

So, to answer your questions: NO moving off the Nic and we'll stay the course. No need to keep asking these silly questions. Nic is it and that's it.

Just to clarify your position because this needs to be emphasized: without a dual MEC there is no way Nicolau can be negotiated- any move off the Nic bears the full weight on USAPA for DFR. All it takes is one pilot and the case is filed. We all know how that turned out with Addington with overwhelming evidence of how DOH disadvantages the west. I'm looking forward to going through this again, this time with the safeties off- we're going to get a direct hit and this time there won't be a liberal loop hole for USAPA to slither out of.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Just to clarify your position because this needs to be emphasized: without a dual MEC there is no way Nicolau can be negotiated- any move off the Nic bears the full weight on USAPA for DFR. All it takes is one pilot and the case is filed. We all know how that turned out with Addington with overwhelming evidence of how DOH disadvantages the west. I'm looking forward to going through this again, this time with the safeties off- we're going to get a direct hit and this time there won't be a liberal loop hole for USAPA to slither out of.

I disagree. And this could be incorporated into the survey. Are you in favor of empanneling a special committee, task force, commission, whatever you wish to call it, which will reinstate, on a temporary basis, the authority of the PHX domicile to negotiate the terms and conditions of Section 22; further, granting them veto authority?

Where there's a will there's a way. Such a mechanism would return us to the staus quo ante prior to the representational election.

I'm not afraid to find out the true sentiment of this pilot group, the entire group, at this point in time - are you?

 

[Piedmont1984]

While I agree with everything you said, the unfortunate truth is that those who take the time to participate control the direction of the union. Knowing the sentiment of the silent majority won't make a difference unless the leadership is convinced that that majority will toss them out if they don't pay attention, and history is full of examples where the silent majority wouldn't take the actions necessary to make the leaders follow the path that the majority favors.

I've often said that the pilot group makes the union, not the other way around. That presumes that the pilot group takes the initiative to be informed and participate. Human nature almost demands that those in charge will do what they want as long as they have no fear of being booted out, and it's oh so easy for them to mobilize their supporters as necessary to remain in power when the majority doesn't participate because of apathy, a feeling of "What can I do?", or whatever rationalization is convenient.

Of course, one other problem is that some percentage of that silent majority is silent because the leaders are doing exactly what they want them to do.

Jim

Agreed. And on that note, big litmus test approaching in the spring of 2012, USAPA officer elections.

 

[prechilill]

I disagree. And this could be incorporated into the survey. Are you in favor of empanneling a special committee, task force, commission, whatever you wish to call it, which will reinstate, on a temporary basis, the authority of the PHX domicile to negotiate the terms and conditions of Section 22; further, granting them veto authority?

But who is conducting the survey? Who iwould be sponsoring it? Who would oversee the special committee? These questions are rhetorical to emphasize a point- all roads lead to USAPA. There is no longer a west MEC as cited by your statement in the post above, described as a referendum of the combined pilot group with the successful USAPA campaign. You guys won, now you are in full control and with that comes full responsibility. I think it is this last point you are not understanding- USAPA has sole responsibility going forward and there is no way to go back. Try unexploding a bomb and see how far you get.

 

[Piedmont1984]

But who is conducting the survey? Who iwould be sponsoring it? Who would oversee the special committee? These questions are rhetorical to emphasize a point- all roads lead to USAPA. There is no longer a west MEC as cited by your statement in the post above, described as a referendum of the combined pilot group with the successful USAPA campaign. You guys won, now you are in full control and with that comes full responsibility. I think it is this last point you are not understanding- USAPA has sole responsibility going forward and there is no way to go back. Try unexploding a bomb and see how far you get.

In my original post I mentioned the Wilson Center as a possible survey administrator. Which says to me you're really not listening, so to speak.

 

[prechilill]

In my original post I mentioned the Wilson Center as a possible survey administrator. Which says to me you're really not listening, so to speak.

But who calls the Wilson Center? Who contracts the Wilson Center? You're not understanding the obvious because you are too focused on one tree (a watered down Nic) and not seeing the big picture. You took an irreversible step by going with one MEC and voting ALPA off the property. There has never been anyone to go back the other way with the "oh, my mistake, let's just give the west pilots an MEC long enough to negotiate away the Nic". Do you see the problem now?

 

[Piedmont1984]

But who calls the Wilson Center? Who contracts the Wilson Center? You're not understanding the obvious because you are too focused on one tree (a watered down Nic) and not seeing the big picture. You took an irreversible step by going with one MEC and voting ALPA off the property. There has never been anyone to go back the other way with the "oh, my mistake, let's just give the west pilots an MEC long enough to negotiate away the Nic". Do you see the problem now?

I concede this much - we've entered a landscape for which there are no maps. In several months there will be another leadership election. This election will give us a good idea of where this pilot group wants to go. It will be conducted with the results of both LOA93 and the injunction behind us. If the incumbents are re-elected then it's steady as she goes, maintain the status quo. If they are not, depending on the composition of the new leadership, the union may be ready to reconsider its position. The first step would be to ask the pilots in the form of a scientific survey. By that time, for all I know, the east pilots may be ready to accept the Nic. OTOH, the west pilots may be ready to move off the Nic.

The leadership of this union has initiated lawsuits, hired (and fired) law firms, commissioned a safety culture survey and published newspaper ads. Show me where it's written that they cannot empanel a special committee and grant them extraordinary one time authority.

 

[prechilill]

I concede this much - we've entered a landscape for which there are no maps. In several months there will be another leadership election. This election will give us a good idea of where this pilot group wants to go. It will be conducted with the results of both LOA93 and the injunction behind us. If the incumbents are re-elected then it's steady as she goes, maintain the status quo. If they are not, depending on the composition of the new leadership, the union may be ready to reconsider its position. The first step would be to ask the pilots in the form of a scientific survey. By that time, for all I know, the east pilots may be ready to accept the Nic. OTOH, the west pilots may be ready to move off the Nic.

The leadership of this union has initiated lawsuits, hired (and fired) law firms, commissioned a safety culture survey and published newspaper ads. Show me where it's written that they cannot empanel a special committee and grant them extraordinary one time authority.

I agree with all you said above. I am of the belief a terminal step was taken by Bradford which was never recognized by the east pilots who were doped up on emotion at the time of the USAPA vote. Like I said earlier, it is kinda like trying to unexplode a bomb. Maybe you can undo what Bradford did, I am not a lawyer but I just do not believe that is possible due to the context of how any efforts to "resolve" the seniority dispute will look to a jury. We are well down the road of the legal fight and Seham correctly predicted USAPA would be challenged in court- he just underestimated how long it would take to resolve (as well as not understanding what a DFR is). So what we are seeing, for the most part, was anticipated by Seham even. I think we will see a resolution in the next three to four years.

 

[Move2CLT]

I disagree. And this could be incorporated into the survey. Are you in favor of empanneling a special committee, task force, commission, whatever you wish to call it, which will reinstate, on a temporary basis, the authority of the PHX domicile to negotiate the terms and conditions of Section 22; further, granting them veto authority?

Never happen. There is no mechanism in place and the committee is USAPA either way you look at it. This will always end in a DFR against USAPA.

How about you just accept the Nic - doesn't get any easier than that if you want to end this.

I just laugh my ass off when I read off the wall suggestions like this. Funny how the only ones looking for options are easties!!!

You guys don't mind LOA93? Good.

 

[Res Judicata]

Agreed. And on that note, big litmus test approaching in the spring of 2012, USAPA officer elections.

If Cleary runs, phx will elect him by landslide.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I just laugh my ass off when I read off the wall suggestions like this. Funny how the only ones looking for options are easties!!!

You guys don't mind LOA93? Good.

Off the wall can be interpreted by others as outside the box.

And I'd still like to get a few thousand more opinions.

 

[Move2CLT]

If Cleary runs, phx will elect him by landslide.

He's got my vote!!!