US Pilots Labor Discussion

[aquagreen73s]

Small correction - not without court ordered immunity from legal liability, which I don't personally think they'll get.

Jim

Agreed.

My hunch is that the dec case drags on longer than one side's stamina.

 

[Move2CLT]

Go look up our financials the day of the merger. I don't ever hang on management's words. More times than not they're lying. Unlike the east, we west pilots like to back things up with facts we find on our own time.

Make the effort Pi.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Go watch the Sept. CLT F/A crew news session, "Who saved whom", and learn something.

Like "US was on the verge of liquidation, they were already in bankruptcy and I believe without the merger would have liquidated" or "America West was not in dramatically better shape...while we were not on the verge of liquidating..."

This merger integration has been delayed long enough to see which assumptions were correct.

Revisionist history. Taking the results of the merger and applying it to US' future prospects as a stand-alone carrier in 2005...

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Go look up our financials the day of the merger. I don't ever hang on management's words. More times than not they're lying. Unlike the east, we west pilots like to back things up with facts we find on our own time.

Make the effort Pi.

I have and they show downward trends. Again history has allowed us to see where you would have been, if you could open your eyes. Several quarters of losses prior to the merger, rising employee and fuel costs, failure of the trans con route expansion, the coming economic problems in your two hubs, and outstanding ATSB loan and looming cash crunch.

From your posts, on this I have to give Parker the edge on you. We both needed the merger, even if US Airways needs were more pressing.

Here are a few, admittedly selected, from you favorite document, the Nicolau award:

Despite these differences, to be detailed later, it is clear from the
evidence that the more financially able needed the other and that both
have benefited financially from the acquisition.

The America West Representatives concede that the scheduled
repayments of the Company's ATSB loan created potential liquidity
problems for the airline.

 

[Black Swan]

So if I go to Wendy's I can't be served till you are at McDonald's? I, and anyone behind me at Wendy's, have to twiddle out thumbs till you're served at MickeyDee's? If, by some twist of fate, I get served first I have to give you my burger since you were in a line at a different burger joint first? "Interesting" logic...

At least you're admitting what you really want - the west to get nothing till the east gets everything it wants... :blink:

Jim

So how do you feel, if you are in line in Wendys for 15 minutes, and somebody walks in the door and goes to the head of the line?

 

[Pi brat]

Like "US was on the verge of liquidation, they were already in bankruptcy and I believe without the merger would have liquidated" or "America West was not in dramatically better shape...while we were not on the verge of liquidating..."



Revisionist history. Taking the results of the merger and applying it to US' future prospects as a stand-alone carrier in 2005...

Jim

Proof, Liar. I have said that I thought US was probably headed to liquidation without the merger. I have no idea if AWA would have. I think Parker's scenario was highly probable, with an outcome for west pilots worse than they have seen with the merger. I wonder if any AWA pilot would switch places with a Frontier pilot at the same relative place on the list.

 

[Move2CLT]

I have and they show downward trends. Again history has allowed us to see where you would have been, if you could open your eyes. Several quarters of losses prior to the merger, rising employee and fuel costs, failure of the trans con route expansion, the coming economic problems in your two hubs, and outstanding ATSB loan and looming cash crunch.

From your posts, on this I have to give Parker the edge on you. We both needed the merger, even if US Airways needs were more pressing.

Here are a few, admittedly selected, from you favorite document, the Nicolau award:

Despite these differences, to be detailed later, it is clear from the
evidence that the more financially able needed the other and that both
have benefited financially from the acquisition.

The America West Representatives concede that the scheduled
repayments of the Company's ATSB loan created potential liquidity
problems for the airline.

Downward trends?!?! Really? How many continuous quarters of profit did AWA show prior to the merger being announced? I'll give you a hint - its in the double digits.

 

[Black Swan]

Maybe?? Not maybe. The east did exactly that. But at least you are admitting where the problem "maybe" started.



Seriously??? This is the attitude that causes your problems in the first place. What are they, children in the 3rd grade? So they were "sat down and TOLD" what to do. What makes you think you or anyone in ALPA can TELL anyone what to do? No one had the right to TELL anyone what to do. Except the courts maybe. And that is yet to be determined.

Speaking of which, did you ever consider where you would be today if the UA acquisition of US had happened in 2000? (Yes it was an acquisition, not a merger. US was literally being bought with our cash from an ESOP company, where we had veto rights on the BOD, and every right to negotiate a pre-nup.) Don't get me wrong. I thank Heaven that it fell apart. But it was this EXACT attitude of "telling everyone how it's going to be" when you have no right to, that precipitated the collapse of that acquisition. Yet then as today, you guys are always so quick to blame the rest of the world for your problems.




And as you and many others have said, you are fine with the separate ops and LOA93 forever. So why the THOUSANDS of pages arguing over what you claim to accept? It's fine to continue hoping for a win with Kasher. But thinking it has more than a slight chance of going your way, as some seem to claim here, is certainly more wishful thinking than a good probability.

Hey, how is that merger going over there? Not too good I hear, because ALPA has messed with the recipe of mergers so many times, the end result clearly is no good. Here is some more good stuff for you to read.




Bill_Wilder says:
August 19, 2009 at 9:54 pm
Mr. Vasin, (if that should be Capt. Vasin, I apologize)

The simple answer to your question is no, I would not (and did not in 2007) sue ALPA because ALPA is not a party to the arbitration proceeding that produced the Nicolau Award. The East and West MEC’s were the parties.

For that reason,Bill_Wilder says:
August 19, 2009 at 9:54 pm
Mr. Vasin, (if that should be Capt. Vasin, I apologize)

The simple answer to your question is no, I would not (and did not in 2007) sue ALPA because ALPA is not a party to the arbitration proceeding that produced the Nicolau Award. The East and West MEC’s were the parties.

For that reason, we filed suit against the West MEC to overturn the award on the ground that it was contrary to the arbitration agreement (ALPA Merger Policy.) We did not allege a “flawed process” but that the award was contrary to ALPA Merger Policy.

You and your attorneys sought to dismiss that lawsuit by removing it to federal court, arguing that it actually constituted a DFR claim against ALPA. The federal court rejected that argument and granted our motion to remand the case to state court. (Federal courts do not remand meritless cases to state court, they dismiss them.) So in the only disputed motion on the lawsuit, the West MEC and its lawyers lost. Those are the facts about the lawsuit.

I obviously cannot state why the West MEC refused to engage the East MEC at Wye River on its proposal to modify the Nicolau Award in settlement of the dispute. You have confirmed, however, that the West MEC did refuse to engage in that effort.

I agree that further “tit for tat” isn’t productive. I may have done that with earlier posters, although I wasn’t meaning to.

As I stated above, my opinion that the judge’s ruling is contrary to law does not go to the real issue of the dispute facing the East and West pilots. (And of course one attorney’s position is hardly the same effect as rulings by a court.)

 

[Pi brat]

Downward trends?!?! Really? How many continuous quarters of profit did AWA show prior to the merger being announced? I'll give you a hint - its in the double digits.

Really. Prove it. Show us double digit "continuous quarters".

I'll start you off. Here is a quote from something called a Form 10-K, a financial thingy, I just found.

"During 2004, extremely high jet fuel prices and excess capacity throughout the domestic air system began to negatively impact the low cost segment of the airline industry. As a result, several low cost carriers that had previously operated profitably, including AWA, experienced declining earnings. AWA reported a net loss of $85.3 million for 2004."

 

[Black Swan]

Please allow me to modify your analogy. Its not McDonalds. It was more like an Arby's store that was closing up shop. Arby's was out of burgers and had nothing but fries left. They even sent a thousand patrons out to the curb with an IOU for a burger just in case they miraculously found some more beef. Now the customers still in the store were given a relative slot over at Wendy's, which was better than nothing. The ones with the IOU were allowed to redeem those at Wendy's. But that's not enough for the Arby's customers. They want the Wendy's customers to step outside and hand over their burgers to the poor Arby's souls who are on the street.

More from Bill Wilder on your specious musings from your own merger swamp.............Consider the comparison between UAL and CO. According to your logic, every CO pilot should go ahead of every UAL pilot.

Of course, the fact that US Airways is drawing down more on its West operation undermines the entire premise of the Nicolau Award–that West pilots had far greater career expectations and a more viable carrier. Nicolau came to this erroneous conclusion only because of the shallow record before him on America West’s prospects, including his (now obviously wrong) dismissal of a statement by America West President Scott Kirby that AWA had financial distress that required the merger.

Thanks to the court, however, an erroneous arbitration award, based on an erroneous record on the subject of America West’s future, is set in stone.

 

[apollo]

Like "US was on the verge of liquidation, they were already in bankruptcy and I believe without the merger would have liquidated" or "America West was not in dramatically better shape...while we were not on the verge of liquidating..."

Revisionist history. Taking the results of the merger and applying it to US' future prospects as a stand-alone carrier in 2005...

Jim

One of the three arbiters of the NWA dal pilot list, Mr Bloch, disagrees with your assessment at that time about US Airways. He probably relies more on facts than an opinion like yours, which every one has by the way, but yours clearly defines your unique personality.

US Airways dispatcher seniority.

Standing by for the cherry picking.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Proof, Liar. I have said that I thought US was probably headed to liquidation without the merger.

What you actually said was "This merger integration has been delayed long enough to see which assumptions were correct." I don't see "US was probably headed to liquidation".

You continue to ignore the shape US was in, like using that "probably", but repeatedly beat the westies over the head with what you claim would have been their fate without the merger.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

So how do you feel, if you are in line in Wendys for 15 minutes, and somebody walks in the door and goes to the head of the line?

See, that's your problem BS. You still think it was your line. Ignorance doesn't excuse not knowing the facts.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

One of the three arbiters of the NWA dal pilot list, Mr Bloch, disagrees with your assessment at that time about US Airways.

Where have I heard that 1 of 3 disagreeing doesn't mean squat? Oh, right, the easties...

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

What you actually said was "This merger integration has been delayed long enough to see which assumptions were correct." I don't see "US was probably headed to liquidation".

You continue to ignore the shape US was in, like using that "probably", but repeatedly beat the westies over the head with what you claim would have been their fate without the merger.

Jim

I said probably. I have said it before. Did I say US was not headed towards liquidation in that post? How could I say anything but probably as it did not actually happen, just like it was "probably" for AWA, as their future was also altered by a MERGER. I THINK US would have liquidated and AWA would have had a fate like Frontier, sort of like Doug does. I know he doesn't hold up to retired pilots in their basement, and he sometimes confounds me, but financial institutions seem to be willing to give him more money than I think they would you or me.

You bend, twist a flat out LIE.