US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

Noooo, I was quoted America West Airlines 10-K. Other airlines may indeed put the same things in it, but that would even make my case stronger

Sure, you quoted the "Risk Factors" in the AWH 10K - like I said every public company has that in their 10k, including Exxon-Mobile. How many Billions did they make last year? Are they in poor financial shape? It's basically boilerplate language the lawyers put in and has nothing to do with the financial shape of the company. It's nothing but a laundry list of things that, if they occurred, could have an adverse effect on the company.

Jim

 

[cactusboy53]

Really? Then why did NIC not protect all the current A330 Captains at the time of the merger. Dozens of West pilots were placed senior to the junior A330 Captains. So, I guess your argument will be that they had bids out of seniority. I won't buy it. A bid award is a bid award.


Driver B)

Logical argument doesn't help. Asking about integrity doesn't help. Humorous comparisons don't help. Shame doesn't help. Peer pressure from other pilot groups don't help. Moral, ethical or legal arguments don't help.

This process will ONLY be finished by the courts AND when Mr. Parker has figured out that he must offer enough money to pass a contract with the Nicolau Award (because that is presently the only legally binding seniority award in existence).

Argue away. Rage against the machine. Watch as you fritter away millions of dollars in wages, benefits, vacation, contract improvements and time off. We shall sit back and patiently await the conclusion of this path that you have taken us down.

You want to know the biggest reason why no one in their right mind on the west will ever "help" negotiate away from the Nicolau? You can not be held to your word. Your group entered into a legally binding arbitration. The product was not to your liking so you balked. You wanted our participation during the Blue Ribbon committee - you said it was DOH. We were asked to participate in the Rice Committee and told it was something different - it was DOH. We were asked again to participate in Wye River (again promised it was something different) - GUESS WHAT.....it was DOH again.

Sorry Driver. USAPA & the company have painted yourselves into a corner. The judge(s) will finish this, and there will be a conclusion eventually.

 

[Pi brat]

Sure, you quoted the "Risk Factors" in the AWH 10K - like I said every public company has that in their 10k, including Exxon-Mobile. How many Billions did they make last year? Are they in poor financial shape? It's basically boilerplate language the lawyers put in and has nothing to do with the financial shape of the company. It's nothing but a laundry list of things that, if they occurred, could have an adverse effect on the company.

Jim

Typical Jimbob. Address the issue, stop deflecting.

 

[Pi brat]

Logical argument doesn't help. Asking about integrity doesn't help. Humorous comparisons don't help. Shame doesn't help. Peer pressure from other pilot groups don't help. Moral, ethical or legal arguments don't help.

This process will ONLY be finished by the courts AND when Mr. Parker has figured out that he must offer enough money to pass a contract with the Nicolau Award (because that is presently the only legally binding seniority award in existence).

Argue away. Rage against the machine. Watch as you fritter away millions of dollars in wages, benefits, vacation, contract improvements and time off. We shall sit back and patiently await the conclusion of this path that you have taken us down.

You want to know the biggest reason why no one in their right mind on the west will ever "help" negotiate away from the Nicolau? You can not be held to your word. Your group entered into a legally binding arbitration. The product was not to your liking so you balked. You wanted our participation during the Blue Ribbon committee - you said it was DOH. We were asked to participate in the Rice Committee and told it was something different - it was DOH. We were asked again to participate in Wye River (again promised it was something different) - GUESS WHAT.....it was DOH again.

Sorry Driver. USAPA & the company have painted yourselves into a corner. The judge(s) will finish this, and ther

e will be a conclusion eventually.

BLAH,BLAH, BLAH.....says Mr reform USAPA. You and Ken cannot be trusted.

 

[BoeingBoy]

So why do you think he used our positions from 2007 instead of what we "brought" to the merger in 2005?

He didn't, but you'll never believe anyone who says that. What was Colello's position on the PID? Where was he on the Nic? Same place on both - most senior furloughed east pilot. Now, what position did he hold on 1/1/2007?

Jim

 

[N924PS]

Logical argument doesn't help. Asking about integrity doesn't help. Humorous comparisons don't help. Shame doesn't help. Peer pressure from other pilot groups don't help. Moral, ethical or legal arguments don't help.

This process will ONLY be finished by the courts AND when Mr. Parker has figured out that he must offer enough money to pass a contract with the Nicolau Award (because that is presently the only legally binding seniority award in existence).

Argue away. Rage against the machine. Watch as you fritter away millions of dollars in wages, benefits, vacation, contract improvements and time off. We shall sit back and patiently await the conclusion of this path that you have taken us down.

You want to know the biggest reason why no one in their right mind on the west will ever "help" negotiate away from the Nicolau? You can not be held to your word. Your group entered into a legally binding arbitration. The product was not to your liking so you balked. You wanted our participation during the Blue Ribbon committee - you said it was DOH. We were asked to participate in the Rice Committee and told it was something different - it was DOH. We were asked again to participate in Wye River (again promised it was something different) - GUESS WHAT.....it was DOH again.

Sorry Driver. USAPA & the company have painted yourselves into a corner. The judge(s) will finish this, and there will be a conclusion eventually.

Great post CB.

Almost 3000 posts on this thread alone are just one good reason for both sides to simply go to "silent running" mode until the judges complete their work.

Until then...............Hasta la Vista!

 

[A320 Driver]

Throwing the BS flag on this post. The oldest bid I can find is from April 04. There were a TOTAL of 79 330 captain positions. Fine you want to protect 79 spots you give up the other 438 deal?

The junior 330 captain on that bid was R. S. Brown seniority number 388. The east got the first 517. So how in the He## could "Dozens of west pilots placed senior to the junior A330 captain" happen? Spewing BS and lies.

If you are going to make up crap don't make it so easy to prove you wrong.

How far back you going to go? When the NIC came down, the junior Captain on the 330 was Portela. His number at that time was around 700.
BTW, you prove me wrong and I'll say I'm wrong. I don't "spew" BS and lies. I just make mistakes like everyone else.

Driver

 

[BoeingBoy]

Driver,

In a relative position merger people aren't positioned on the list based on the bid they hold, but rather the position they could hold if every line pilot bid the highest position they could hold. Would you want Potela moved above a more senior east pilot just because he held the 330 while east pilots senior to him didn't bid it for whatever reason? I assume not, plus ALPA's merger policy bans changing the order of pilots on either side's list so there is no other way to do it.

Jim

 

[cactusboy53]

BLAH,BLAH, BLAH.....says Mr reform USAPA. You and Ken cannot be trusted.

I'm still interesting in reforming USAPA, the problem is there also needs to be some participation from the east pilot group. No participation.....NO CHANGE. No participation......NO BETTER CONTRACT. No participation.......NO MORE MORE MONEY. No participation........NO MORE TIME OFF. No participation.........LOA 93 until you figure out that you want CHANGE, A NEW CONTRACT, MORE MONEY, AND MORE TIME OFF.

So simple that a USAPIAN may eventually figure it out (even if the courts tell him that YES, final is really final and binding is really binding :blink: )

Oh, BTW.....why exactly can Ken not be trusted?

 

[A320 Driver]

Driver,

In a relative position merger people aren't positioned on the list based on the bid they hold, but rather the position they could hold if every line pilot bid the highest position they could hold. Would you want Potela moved above a more senior east pilot just because he held the 330 while east pilots senior to him didn't bid it for whatever reason? I assume not, plus ALPA's merger policy bans changing the order of pilots on either side's list so there is no other way to do it.

Jim

I replied to a post that stated "Exactly - everybody got their rightful place based on the place they had at the time of the merger".

NIC decided what the "rightful place" was, not some fixed value based on what and where you were at the time of the merger.

In the shuttle award, what you held DID make a difference as far as the widebodies go. The "rightfull" place in that award placed the first Shuttle Captain immediately junior to the bottom 767 Captain. They were slotted after that.

Your "rightful place" according to NIC I and NIC II are very different. It's strickly a matter of opinion. NICs opinion. Not some fixed value.


Driver

 

[cactusboy53]

WOW....2012 payrates for SWA F/O vs. ATN CA Annual Pay, using 15 yr. SWA average of 107 TFP/mo. and ATN average 85.6 hours/mo.
2012
..............SWA F/O.....................................AirTran CA
Year 5 $146,317.45................................$139,329.41
Year 6 $152,708.69 ...............................$141,229.73
Year 7 $156,768.70 ...............................$143,284.13
Year 8 $160,881.09 ...............................$154,994.21
Year 9 $162,701.55 ...............................$158,404.51
Year 10 $166,892.52 .............................$162,492.77
Year 11 $168,739.17............................. $165,707.90
Year 12 $170,572.72 .............................$169,508.54
Year 13 $170,572.72 .............................$171,449.95
Year 14 $170,572.72 .............................$173,411.60
Year 15 $170,572.72 .............................$175,414.94

This was information in the SWA/AT roadshow information. Even Airtran Captain pay (presently)makes USAPA look like SUCKERS, let alone SWAL FO pay!

How's that gold standard working for you kids?

 

[apollo]

Please allow me to modify your analogy. Its not McDonalds. It was more like an Arby's store that was closing up shop. Arby's was out of burgers and had nothing but fries left. They even sent a thousand patrons out to the curb with an IOU for a burger just in case they miraculously found some more beef. Now the customers still in the store were given a relative slot over at Wendy's, which was better than nothing. The ones with the IOU were allowed to redeem those at Wendy's. But that's not enough for the Arby's customers. They want the Wendy's customers to step outside and hand over their burgers to the poor Arby's souls who are on the street.

Speaking of mergers and burgers, I have provided a link to the cal seniority merger video you may not have seen in a while. This group looks like a very well fed and eerily intimate bunch. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

They look like they are going to super size their cal seniority order at your expense.

cal merger commitee video

 

[Pi brat]

Oh, BTW.....why exactly can Ken not be trusted?

I caught him lying. I've found that others share my views for other reasons.

 

[Pi brat]

Even Airtran Captain pay (presently)makes USAPA look like SUCKERS, let alone SWAL FO pay!

How's that gold standard working for you kids?

Take the Nic blinders off. How do these rates make the west look? We are all being short changed.

How's that Nic working for you?

 

[Pi brat]

How far back you going to go? When the NIC came down, the junior Captain on the 330 was Portela. His number at that time was around 700.
BTW, you prove me wrong and I'll say I'm wrong. I don't "spew" BS and lies. I just make mistakes like everyone else.

Driver

Ignore him Driver. He is one of the most A of AFO's.