US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

We were not talking about 330 F/O's we were talking about 330 captains. Of course your underpaid over-aged F/o's are desperate to scrap together any pennies they can before retiring on LOA 93. Since your egos are so big if they can't say they are captains at least they can say INTERNATIONAL WIDE BODY f/o. Why was there a big gap to the last 5 330 cvaptains? No one wanted to sit bottom reserve? If that gap had shifted up how many west pilot could hold 330 captain? Still dozens? Today how many west pilots can hold 330 captain? Dozens?

I don't care what happen in 2008. There were only 79 330 captain positions. If it went to 388 or 700. They were not the high demand jobs you all say they are. BTW the what happened in 2008? usapa came on the property.

You guys keep telling untruths about the Nicolau award. If your MEC had been honest about the award in 2007 and if you east guys would educate yourselves as to the truth we all would not be in this mess. someday you guys are going to understand the reality and truth. You wilol understand how much your ignorance has cost all of us.

Geez, I try to help you out and you can even take a clue. Go to wings and pull up the latest east bid results and follow along.

I know you were talking about captains. I pointed to the F/Os because the high seniority numbers in the right and back seats reflect that it's a pretty good job. The first 21 A330 F/Os in CLT could hold a primary block as a 320 C/O, that would have them making MORE money. The captain can be expected to the most senior because it pays the most. Many A330 F/Os are not where the can make the most money.

You were talking about the past. You want to go find out how many west captains could now hold it, you go find it.

You show me my untruths about the Nicolau award.

 

[crazystnic]

I'll take your word for it and without reading the award I don't know why the different methodology, if it was indeed different. Maybe that was how he protected the 767 for the US pilots for a while, putting more at the top than there were jobs as he did in this merger (just a different way of doing it). But using the same methodology as this time, the 757 and 767 jobs were US only as I said - Shuttle brought neither. So US pilots should have been put at the top equal to the number of jobs on both those planes. Making it likely that pilots holding the 767 were above Shuttle pilots. One does need to be careful to not mistake what bid was held when the award was published with that held on the PID. The combined list is constructed around the jobs on the PID if there's not a change already in the works.





That may be semantics only - it was between you and I. A pilot can be "exactly" in the same order among his pre-merger peers and "exactly" in the same relative position but not "exactly" capable of holding the same bid if everyone above him/her bids the most their seniority can hold. But in the real world, every pilot bidding the highest position they can hold doesn't exist. There are those that bid for QOL, or whatever. East, with the worst reserve system, just has more of that.

Jim

The two NIC awards were completely different.. Neither were very good, but at leas with NIC 1 it was liveable. However, Even the most senior Shuttle CAPT is now a RSV on the new list..... Hardly the way to end a career for someone who was hired in 72...
but at least it was palitable...

the second NIC was a disaster.. and for anyone to argue otherwise is fooling themselves...

with the attrition coming on for st NIC to overlook that and put a guy on the property with a month ahead of a guys who had 16 years and no furlough time time is down and out wrong.

 

[A320 Driver]

Are you still working on your apology to Driver?

Don't worry about it brat. I could dig through the bids, do all the research, show him in black and white and it wouldn't make one bit of difference. I've been down this road before.

Thanks anyway...

Driver B)

 

[mrbreeze]

The two NIC awards were completely different.. Neither were very good, but at leas with NIC 1 it was liveable. However, Even the most senior Shuttle CAPT is now a RSV on the new list..... Hardly the way to end a career for someone who was hired in 72...
but at least it was palitable...

the second NIC was a disaster.. and for anyone to argue otherwise is fooling themselves...

with the attrition coming on for st NIC to overlook that and put a guy on the property with a month ahead of a guys who had 16 years and no furlough time and had 10 years of active time is down and out wrong.

Also, even contrary to ALPA merger policy.

 

[BoeingBoy]

with the attrition coming on for st NIC to overlook that and put a guy on the property with a month ahead of a guys who had 16 years and no furlough time and had 10 years of active time is down and out wrong.

You all love to look at the present and project it back to 2005, don't you? If US had not merged but liquidated in 2005, how many pilots would have captured that attrition? It's simple - people who had a job on the PId were put together. Anyone who didn't have a job was put on the bottom. As Cleary, Mowrey, and Cardoza wrote in a US Airwaves article:

A pilot’s status as a furloughee at the time of the merger announcement or arbitration hearing may also bear significantly on the pilot’s placement on the merged list. Because reductions in force occur in inverse order of seniority, furloughs and juniority go hand in hand. Beyond that, the absence of current employment and uncertainties about future prospects are among the equities likely to affect a furloughee’s seniority placement.

Contrary to what most east pilots now claim, "furloughs and juniority go hand in hand" - be definition, when pilots are furloughed they are junior to pilots who are able to keep a job. Why would anyone think that in a merger a furloughed pilot on one side should go ahead of a pilot on the other side who had a job, so is by definition senior to the furloughee. Cleary certainly recognized that - at least he did until he couldn't just take any captain job he wanted out west.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Don't worry about it brat. I could dig through the bids, do all the research, show him in black and white and it wouldn't make one bit of difference. I've been down this road before.

Thanks anyway...

Driver B)

Fact: On the June 1 bid award there were 69 A330 Captain positions. The junior A330 captain was #362 (who is not on the current list). #359 was 1 spot ahead of Knapp on the A330, and he is #223 on the current list.

So how many West captains on the Nic list are senior to the 2005 East A330 captains?

Jim

 

[cactusboy53]

I caught him lying. I've found that others share my views for other reasons.

I know Ken personally, & I find it HIGHLY unlikely that he would be caught "lying" about anything. Could you be more specific with dates, times and specific subject matter? Otherwise it's just another baseless accusation (much like the RICO suits & "Address-Gate").

 

[A320 Driver]

You all love to look at the present and project it back to 2005, don't you? If US had not merged but liquidated in 2005, how many pilots would have captured that attrition? It's simple - people who had a job on the PId were put together. Anyone who didn't have a job was put on the bottom. As Cleary, Mowrey, and Cardoza wrote in a US Airwaves article:

A pilot’s status as a furloughee at the time of the merger announcement or arbitration hearing may also bear significantly on the pilot’s placement on the merged list. Because reductions in force occur in inverse order of seniority, furloughs and juniority go hand in hand. Beyond that, the absence of current employment and uncertainties about future prospects are among the equities likely to affect a furloughee’s seniority placement.

Contrary to what most east pilots now claim, "furloughs and juniority go hand in hand" - be definition, when pilots are furloughed they are junior to pilots who are able to keep a job. Why would anyone think that in a merger a furloughed pilot on one side should go ahead of a pilot on the other side who had a job, so is by definition senior to the furloughee. Cleary certainly recognized that - at least he did until he couldn't just take any captain job he wanted out west.

Jim

I understand your points. Consider this. IMO, US Airways needed time more than they needed money. Between the time the PID was set and the NIC award came out, furloughs went from on the street to widebody pilots. The dynamics changed radically and the award with regard to the furloughed pilots reflected none of that. It didn't have to, but NIC chose to use current dynamics in part of the award and the dynamics from the PID for other parts of the award.
NIC could do almost anything he wanted within his interpretation of ALPA merger policy. What he did was set off a firestorm. That is the risk we took when we turned over our future to a third party. That is also the product of a union merger policy that is designed to fail and pass the buck.

The current stalemate is not about stealing jobs. It's about giving credit for years of service and sacrifices made. True, a West pilot couldn't give a hoot and a hollar about any of that, but there are many on this side that are passionate about it.

I can think of several ways off the top of my head that the effects of the disparity in LOS could have been mitigated. NIC chose not to and here we are. NIC said basically that East pilots had no value and West pilots did. That is a bitter pill to swallow given what we have been through since 1989.

Driver B)

 

[A320 Driver]

Fact: On the June 1 bid award there were 69 A330 Captain positions. The junior A330 captain was #362 (who is not on the current list). #359 was 1 spot ahead of Knapp on the A330, and he is #223 on the current list.

So how many West captains on the Nic list are senior to the 2005 East A330 captains?

Jim

YOU look it up. I'm watching the Panthers/Jaguars game.

Driver

 

[cactusboy53]

Take the Nic blinders off. How do these rates make the west look? We are all being short changed.

How's that Nic working for you?

Sorry Pi, but there is NO ONE that has the authority, right, or inclination to "take the Nic binders off". As I said, the courts will finish this because your group has refused to abide by all agreements of the previous CBA. Our former lawyer (well, really your lawyer that WE helped pay for), who said seniority is like crew meals, has left with all of "our money" and has given you no slam dunk (but most certainly delay & loss of wages / time off NEVER to be recovered).

The Nic is working just fine. It sits been sitting in a mayonnaise jar on the porch of 4000 E. Sky Harbor Boulevard, Phoenix, AZ 85034 since noon of May 03, 2007 (actually it's been on Mr. Parker's desk since then). Mike and Randy already told you guys: No arbitrated seniority award HAS EVER been overturned by the courts. You should really learn to listen (to some of the stuff) that comes out of Mike & Randy's mouths (ewww....even that makes me a little sick.... :blink: )

 

[cleardirect]

I understand your points. Consider this. IMO, US Airways needed time more than they needed money. Between the time the PID was set and the NIC award came out, furloughs went from on the street to widebody pilots. The dynamics changed radically and the award with regard to the furloughed pilots reflected none of that. It didn't have to, but NIC chose to use current dynamics in part of the award and the dynamics from the PID for other parts of the award.
NIC could do almost anything he wanted within his interpretation of ALPA merger policy. What he did was set off a firestorm. That is the risk we took when we turned over our future to a third party. That is also the product of a union merger policy that is designed to fail and pass the buck.

The current stalemate is not about stealing jobs. It's about giving credit for years of service and sacrifices made. True, a West pilot couldn't give a hoot and a hollar about any of that, but there are many on this side that are passionate about it.

I can think of several ways off the top of my head that the effects of the disparity in LOS could have been mitigated. NIC chose not to and here we are. NIC said basically that East pilots had no value and West pilots did. That is a bitter pill to swallow given what we have been through since 1989.

Driver B)

Nicolau did not fail. East pilots failed to give him options. You demanded DOH and LOS. that was it. If you guys had said we want 5 year fences. We want to protect the 19 WB airplanes. Don't you think he would have given it to you? You left him no choice or options. You wanted it all then and you want it all now. How is reality a bitter pill. Your airline was close to death and you admit that since 1989 you have been going downhill. So yes Nicolau say value in the west pilots but not to much in the east.

Read the transcripts of LOA 93. Point to where usapa gave the arbitrator options or suggestions on what you want.

 

[crazystnic]

I understand your points. Consider this. IMO, US Airways needed time more than they needed money. Between the time the PID was set and the NIC award came out, furloughs went from on the street to widebody pilots. The dynamics changed radically and the award with regard to the furloughed pilots reflected none of that. It didn't have to, but NIC chose to use current dynamics in part of the award and the dynamics from the PID for other parts of the award.
NIC could do almost anything he wanted within his interpretation of ALPA merger policy. What he did was set off a firestorm. That is the risk we took when we turned over our future to a third party. That is also the product of a union merger policy that is designed to fail and pass the buck.

The current stalemate is not about stealing jobs. It's about giving credit for years of service and sacrifices made. True, a West pilot couldn't give a hoot and a hollar about any of that, but there are many on this side that are passionate about it.

I can think of several ways off the top of my head that the effects of the disparity in LOS could have been mitigated. NIC chose not to and here we are. NIC said basically that East pilots had no value and West pilots did. That is a bitter pill to swallow given what we have been through since 1989.

Driver B)

exactly right... and the biggest thing you said is a West pilot couldn't give a hoot and a hollar about it, but to the EAST it's everything...

 

[Pi brat]

I know Ken personally, & I find it HIGHLY unlikely that he would be caught "lying" about anything. Could you be more specific with dates, times and specific subject matter? Otherwise it's just another baseless accusation (much like the RICO suits & "Address-Gate").

I believe you were a witness. If so, you saw it, but wanting a win at any cost ignored it. If you didn't, many other westies did and ignored it.

I have no interest in going through it again, I was right the first time.

I THINK he had a hand in the AOL brochures, but not sure. I have pointed to several lies and half truths in those on this board.

 

[Pi brat]

Nicolau did not fail. East pilots failed to give him options. You demanded DOH and LOS. that was it. If you guys had said we want 5 year fences. We want to protect the 19 WB airplanes. Don't you think he would have given it to you? You left him no choice or options. You wanted it all then and you want it all now. How is reality a bitter pill. Your airline was close to death and you admit that since 1989 you have been going downhill. So yes Nicolau say value in the west pilots but not to much in the east.

Read the transcripts of LOA 93. Point to where usapa gave the arbitrator options or suggestions on what you want.

He didn't need to be given any options. ALPA gave him what he needed and no where in that document does it say "you cannot place a furloughed pilot ahead of an active pilot, even to achieve the goals of the merger policy". Brucia told him what he did wrong and he ignored him. What make you think the east would have had any better luck?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I understand your points. Consider this. IMO, US Airways needed time more than they needed money.

That may be true, but you have to remember that time is not free - it takes money. Even in bankruptcy a company has to pay it's post-BK bills - employees, vendors, leasors, taxes, etc - and that takes money. US was out of money by the time the merger happened. What they had been able to raise - Air Whiskey's DIP money, refund of deposits/progress payments from Airbus/Bombardier/Embraer, selling the jetways in PHL to the airport, reduction in lease rates by GECAS in exchange for later return of airplanes early, etc - hundreds of millions - was spent as fast as it came in. Plus over $400 million more. US, without the merger, was facing the winter season's losses and cash drain and had run out of sources for cash. No merger = no money from outside investors. No money = no more time. No more time = no US. What happens to the recalls then? Heck, what happens to the active employees then? At least they can talk about "the attrition train" while they're standing in the unemployment office.

Jim