US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Sorry Pi, but there is NO ONE that has the authority, right, or inclination to "take the Nic binders off". As I said, the courts will finish this because your group has refused to abide by all agreements of the previous CBA. Our former lawyer (well, really your lawyer that WE helped pay for), who said seniority is like crew meals, has left with all of "our money" and has given you no slam dunk (but most certainly delay & loss of wages / time off NEVER to be recovered).

The Nic is working just fine. It sits been sitting in a mayonnaise jar on the porch of 4000 E. Sky Harbor Boulevard, Phoenix, AZ 85034 since noon of May 03, 2007 (actually it's been on Mr. Parker's desk since then). Mike and Randy already told you guys: No arbitrated seniority award HAS EVER been overturned by the courts. You should really learn to listen (to some of the stuff) that comes out of Mike & Randy's mouths (ewww....even that makes me a little sick.... :blink: )

Do you have to have someone tell you to take your blinders off? Geez.

I'm not telling you to give up on the Nic. That is your right to fight for what you think is right. What I'm trying to say is look at all sides, as we are all losing, and it was our collective decisions that put us here.

 

[Pi brat]

Don't worry about it brat. I could dig through the bids, do all the research, show him in black and white and it wouldn't make one bit of difference. I've been down this road before.

Thanks anyway...

Driver B)

Me too, and with that one I think you are right. Mr. Most angry.

 

[Pi brat]

You all love to look at the present and project it back to 2005, don't you? If US had not merged but liquidated in 2005, how many pilots would have captured that attrition? It's simple - people who had a job on the PId were put together. Anyone who didn't have a job was put on the bottom. As Cleary, Mowrey, and Cardoza wrote in a US Airwaves article:

A pilot’s status as a furloughee at the time of the merger announcement or arbitration hearing may also bear significantly on the pilot’s placement on the merged list. Because reductions in force occur in inverse order of seniority, furloughs and juniority go hand in hand. Beyond that, the absence of current employment and uncertainties about future prospects are among the equities likely to affect a furloughee’s seniority placement.

Contrary to what most east pilots now claim, "furloughs and juniority go hand in hand" - be definition, when pilots are furloughed they are junior to pilots who are able to keep a job. Why would anyone think that in a merger a furloughed pilot on one side should go ahead of a pilot on the other side who had a job, so is by definition senior to the furloughee. Cleary certainly recognized that - at least he did until he couldn't just take any captain job he wanted out west.

Jim

Jim,

I asked you in the "Wendys" analogy, if US went away, how would that have an AWA pilot get an A330 bid. Did I miss your answer on that or any other of my questions? How about my other posts? Ready to back up dreaminofclt?

There have been mergers that had furloughed pilots placed ahead of active pilots from the other list. How many mergers have had furloughed pilots with 16 years of active service? Brucia nailed it in this one, Nicolau ignored him.

 

[BoeingBoy]

YOU look it up. I'm watching the Panthers/Jaguars game.

You don't need to look it up. All you need is one number and you undoubtedly know that number - 517. No west pilots are in the top 517 of Nic's list, so no west pilots are senior to an east pilot who was an A330 captain in 2005.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

You don't need to look it up. All you need is one number and you undoubtedly know that number - 517. No west pilots are in the top 517 of Nic's list, so no west pilots are senior to an east pilot who was an A330 captain in 2005.

Jim

Nicolau didn't use the 2005 seniority list, he used 2007. In the award and opinion, the combined list has a date of Jan. 1, 2007. On the Feb 2007 permanent bid, the bottom A330 captain has aprrox. 46 west captains senior to him on the Nicolau list.

"In the exercise of caution, we have also constructed the list on a
no-growth basis, using the fleet as it existed on January 1, 2007, and
giving no weight to pre-merger orders except to the extent that any
such additions were in place as of January 1, 2007. Our judgment as to
the fleet is based, not on asserted expectations as both sides urged,
but on reality. Particularly in this day and age, with airline instability a
way of life, it makes little sense to rely on pre-merger projections. This
is especially the case here when the financial picture of both airlines
was less than optimum. A January 1, 2007 list also is a closer
reflection of reality on the merged airline.
As to staffing, we have, for a variety of reasons, used the jobs
each group brought to the merger as amended by the shifts that
occurred as of January 1, 2007."

"What remains is the balance of the list. Here, we have decided
on ratios by category and status based on the aircraft in the fleets as
of January 1,2007."

 

[A320 Driver]

You don't need to look it up. All you need is one number and you undoubtedly know that number - 517. No west pilots are in the top 517 of Nic's list, so no west pilots are senior to an east pilot who was an A330 captain in 2005.

Jim

It's 10 to 8 Jaguars in the 3rd quarter.

 

[azdryheat]

Speaking of mergers and burgers, I have provided a link to the cal seniority merger video you may not have seen in a while. This group looks like a very well fed and eerily intimate bunch. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

They look like they are going to super size their cal seniority order at your expense.

cal merger commitee video

I watched the video.
#1 this was made shortly after the merger.
#2 I don't see anything that threatened UA pilots. All indications are that the two pilot groups are working well together after a few bumps early on.
#3 I like the idea of waiting for a JCBA before finishing any SL.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim,

I asked you in the "Wendys" analogy, if US went away, how would that have an AWA pilot get an A330 bid.

Maybe AWH would have bought some 330's at the liquidation sale. Maybe they would have leased some used ones. Maybe anything could have happened. That is exactly why putting so much stock in a single chain of future events is such a mistake.

Brucia nailed it in this one, Nicolau ignored him.

As BS and others have repeatedly said, 1 out of three doesn't mean anything - especially when the arbitrator has the only vote. So that's a losing argument. Yes, there have been mergers where a limited number of furloughees were slotted in with active pilots - notice the "slotted" and not put in by DOH. Name one where 1500 or so were put above pilots who were active on the other side.

Jim

 

[767jetz]

You don't even work here. Why are you so threatened by USAPA? The East pilot group?

Just curious...

Driver B)

Just curious...

Why are you so threatened by opinions that don't conform to your view of the world?

Does a person need to work for USAir in order to participate in this conversation? Talk about insecurity! 🙄

BTW, I find people like Nos/Sum/Clax/Apollo, and much of the USAPA propaganda to be offensively self-serving, inaccurate/incomplete to the point of being nothing but lies, and driven by overly inflated egos... pilot or not... USAir or not. IMO USAPA is simply wrong, and you don't have to be a US employee to see it. Sorry that bothers you so much. But please don't believe for a minute that USAPA threatens anyone.

 

[Pi brat]

Maybe AWH would have bought some 330's at the liquidation sale. Maybe they would have leased some used ones. Maybe anything could have happened. That is exactly why putting so much stock in a single chain of future events is such a mistake.



As BS and others have repeatedly said, 1 out of three doesn't mean anything - especially when the arbitrator has the only vote. So that's a losing argument. Yes, there have been mergers where a limited number of furloughees were slotted in with active pilots - notice the "slotted" and not put in by DOH. Name one where 1500 or so were put above pilots who were active on the other side.

Jim

Bought 330's? With what? Did you read the 10-K?

I never said anything about DOH, did I?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Nicolau didn't use the 2005 seniority list, he used 2007.

He used the 2005 list updated to 1/1/2007. I.e. the non-furloughed pilots on the 2005 list less those that had left (retired, resigned, died) are the non-furloughed on the updated list. The furloughed on the 2005 list are the furloughed on the updated list. I suppose you'd be happier if my name was on the Nic list occupying an active slot...you'd have something else to cry foul over

Jim

 

[A320 Driver]

Just curious...

Why are you so threatened by opinions that don't conform to your view of the world?

Does a person need to work for USAir in order to participate in this conversation? Talk about insecurity! 🙄

BTW, I find people like Nos/Sum/Clax/Apollo, and much of the USAPA propaganda to be offensively self-serving, inaccurate/incomplete to the point of being nothing but lies, and driven by overly inflated egos... pilot or not... USAir or not. IMO USAPA is simply wrong, and you don't have to be a US employee to see it. Sorry that bothers you so much. But please don't believe for a minute that USAPA threatens anyone.

I said I was curious, not that it bothered me. Just never seen anyone so obviously angry at an organization that they aren't even affiliated with.

Never mind. Growl away.

Driver

 

[BoeingBoy]

I never said anything about DOH, did I?

Just wanted to make sure since you love to pick out snippits:

Bought 330's? With what? Did you read the 10-K?

What happened to the possibility of leasing that I mentioned?

First, airlines buy airplanes all the time that they don't have the money to pay for. Ever hear of an EETC? How many Billions worth of airplanes does US have on order today? Do they have the money to pay all that? Did you pay cash for your house? Car? Second, why omit the other possibility I mentioned - leasing? You just had to latch onto that "didn't have the money to buy" song and dance didn't you

Seems like you've mentioned that it's only fair to "share" going forward. Guess you didn't mean it...

Jim

 

[Barrister]

Nicolau did not fail. East pilots failed to give him options. You demanded DOH and LOS. that was it. If you guys had said we want 5 year fences. We want to protect the 19 WB airplanes. Don't you think he would have given it to you? You left him no choice or options. You wanted it all then and you want it all now. How is reality a bitter pill. Your airline was close to death and you admit that since 1989 you have been going downhill. So yes Nicolau say value in the west pilots but not to much in the east.

Read the transcripts of LOA 93. Point to where usapa gave the arbitrator options or suggestions on what you want.

A simple YES or NO...did the West proposal put the bottom 900 U pilots at the bottom of the combined list?????

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[BoeingBoy]

I said I was curious, not that it bothered me. Just never seen anyone so obviously angry at an organization that they aren't even affiliated with.

Never mind. Growl away.

Driver

Now I'm curious. Why only for those that don't agree with you? I think it was underpants that pretended to have no dog in the fight but just wanted info, only to take the east side within a few posts (while still claiming to be an outsider). You didn't express any curiosity then. ROACLT professes to be an outsider, not even working for an airline, but you've express no curiosity about his/her interest. Why the double standard?

Jim