US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

With the trainning float and all.

Anybody looking at 300 new hires for training float is going to be disappointed as long as the fleet sizes stay stable. I'd estimate US hiring about half of that or less for the east and doing it mostly in the last few months of 2012 (unless they have small new hire classes). With almost no attrition till effectively 2013, there just isn't the need for that many additional pilots.

Jim

 

[Black Swan]

Appeal Board Hearing Postponed: September 26, 2011


Captain Michael Cleary
President
US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA)
200 E. Woodlawn, Suite 250
Charlotte, NC 28217

RE: USAPA BPR v. Eric Ferguson and Ken Holmes Appeal Board Case No. 2011-006

Dear Captain Cleary:

We are in receipt of your request to postpone the appeal board hearing currently scheduled for September 27-29 in Charlotte and the appeal board hereby grants your request.

Sincerely,

USAPA Appeal Board Members

______

Why did the Cleary delay the hearing?

With the Company's investigation showing no wrong doing and the results of US Airways' outside investigation not complete could Cleary have no evidence to take action against Eric and Ken? What useful benefit is it to punish people who you want to reach a deal with? By the way...who can legally negotiate for USAPA's PHX-based pilots to change the Nicolau Award? I believe nobody.

The West MEC knew better, and should have heeded the warnings at Wye, the fact they have supposedly nobody to negotiate, is their own fault. PS I hear the lights went out at the 11th floor LOA Tempe Hoedown, perhaps some bad news and bad predictions? A bad hair day for Tempe?


Bill Wilder



Bill_Wilder says:
August 19, 2009 at 12:24 pm
It may well be true that now that USAPA is the representative “there is no one to negotiate with” for the West pilots. The East MEC raised that very danger to the West MEC during its efforts to settle the dispute (including the Wye River) effort as the reason why the two MEC’s needed to resolve the dispute. Again, though, the West MEC refused to heed that warning and engage settlement negotiations.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The West MEC knew better, and should have heeded the warnings at Wye, the fact they have supposedly nobody to negotiate, is their own fault. PS I hear the lights went out at the 11th floor LOA Tempe Hoedown, perhaps some bad news and bad predictions? A bad hair day for Tempe?

The eleventh floor of what building? CHQ only has 9 floors of occupied space and the "tenth" floor is mostly mechanical equipment and the elevator superstructure underneath the arched roof. Since there is no eleventh floor at all, I'm wondering who you heard this information from. Heck even the old US Airways executive wing at Crystal City was on the eighth floor so hearkening back to those good old days of running a bankrupt airline doesn't take you to an eleventh floor.

Now if you said we are "days away" from learning Kasher's decision on the LOA93 snapbacks, then you might actually be right this time. Of course I'm still waiting for your prediction on the east/west split to be announced since you said it was "days away" back in June. I think you may need a new, more credible source of information BS.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Wow Hate. You guys are kicking our asses so badly I'm just wondering why DOH isn't in place yet? What about parity? Why haven't you passed a new DOH proposal to the company? You have the majority. You control the BPR. Yet your union continues to flounder. What's going on?

DOH is in place. On the east anyway. I thought that was the case in the west, too. Don't you guys have DOH in your contract?

 

[Phoenix]

Was just stating that there could be all kinds of reasons why. CM is well known for stirring the pot both online and in the newspapers to further his own agenda. His post that I responded to is more of the same.

But if LOA 93 does go the east's way, it will change what east pilots would be willing to negotiate on (meaning vote on) Right now I think if the 2 hard core sides would get off their NIC and DOH horses you would be surprised what the majority of the east would vote in. They won't do NIC as it stands but the majority of the group has been though too many mergers to not be reasonable.

However if the east goes back to 2002 rates or something in between, I don't know if there is a contract out there that Tempe would go for that could possibly be voted in prior to 2020 (meaning prior to 1600+ east retirements) So from that point of view, The majority will never ratify anything with NIC in it. The only way that will ever come to be will be if a court orders it and every concievable appeal has been exhausted. And a LOA 93 win would mean most of the east group would have zero incentive to ever vote for anything that would hurt their seniority in even the smallest degree. Right now most of the easties would be willing to compromise on something in the middle.

We are down to 2 options the way I see it. Figure out some way to meet in the middle or let the years long court battle play out. And yes I realize that the west does not really have a negotiating body right now. So we either start putting middle of the road stuff out and see if a T/A can get ratified by east and west, or we wait till whenever the courts figure it out.

I hear all the time in the crew room pilots saying that they fully expect to retire on LOA 93, and in the same breath they say they will never ever accept a NIC list. So we can either come up with something fresh and different, or more of the same till 2020 at least.

The notion of "negotiating" with the West is a legal fiction/figment. The legal agent of all pilots is USAPA. USAPA negotiates with the company as already acknowledged by the 9th, albeit at a snails pace with all the company maneuvering. USAPA can poll all of its members for input to its bargaining positions but it cannot bargain within itself to satisfy any group.. not anymore than any other singe union can.

The irony is that USAPA actually has to make a decision and be responsible for its actions, subject to DFR attempts, whereas ALPA feigned being a union and foisted a scheme upon the pilots who had to legally pledge to absolve ALPA of any responsibility for the outcome of the train wreck they oversaw.

 

[Claxon]

DOH is in place. On the east anyway. I thought that was the case in the west, too. Don't you guys have DOH in your contract?

Interesting observation NYCBusdriver. Seems the western scabs learned well from Franke. They are all opportunists, believing in a new world order. Where they put in little time, but demand preferential treatment. How about the Franke Air disciples re order their current list, to prove they actually believe DOH means nothing, then maybe you can consider their demands. What is to say the disciples will not change their minds? Don't worry, their appears no driving force that makes the combination of these two airlines even remotely possible. If you do get a chance? Never let these western on your list. You will regret it the rest of your life.

 

[Claxon]

Let's say for argument sake there was desire and ability to negotiate what you call the middle. How do we know that you east pilots will live up to this agreement? You said you agreed to final and binding arbitration. what happens if the majority of east pilots don't like the next deal? You going to want to find a "new middle"? Where does it end?

Disciple of Franke. If you do not believe in DOH, please re configure your current list to reflect youngest pilots to be most senior. Then we will believe you do not recognize DOH first.How can the eastern believe you will not come up with another Franke type plan? You cannot have it both ways. Slot yourselves first, then try another. Franke would love you for it.

 

[Hate2fly]

If LOA 93 is a win why would they not have to negotiate a contract? The majority getting a raise and the union walking away from negotiations leaving 1/3 of the pilots group without a single benefit of this merger would be another DFR.

clear,

Team Tempe doesn't want a contract. Deep down Dougie is a bar room brawler. He always plays the nice guy on the crew news.........right? He has loved every minute of this. Cheap labor. Most of us in the east have seen this show before. Team Tempe is about to get clocked in the bar fight. A joint contract will cost this outfit 400 to 500 million dollars per year. We know they don't want a contract. A win on LOA 93 for the east will be absolutley devistating for the west. I am really looking forward to the east attrition and my yearly 3 percent pay raise every May 1.

Hate

 

[Hate2fly]

I could be wrong, but I believe Cleary is drumming up a reason to fire Seham because Seham refused to file the Status Quo Lawsuit and advise USAPA how to stay clear of legal trouble for the union's orchestrated illegal job action.

But, how can Cleary do that without alienating his support base: the Angry East First Officers (AEFOs) who were hired in 1988, 1989, 1990, and 1999 who were all furloughed? In Cleary's mind I strongly believe he could care less about anybody below him on the seniority list and to some extent the Nicolau Award. Therefore, my point is this. Could Cleary be throwing the all or nothing anti-Nicolau Award people under the bus by terminating Seham's USAPA contract because the AEFOs would lose the architect of why "it's o.k. to renege on a final and binding agreement and seniority can be negotiated like crew meals?"

I'm not sure what's going on here because USAPA is not transparent, but I believe we will see alleged wrong doing uncovered regarding Seham's so-called "bizarre" billing, S,S,M,&P (along with Scott Peterson) will be fired, and O'Dwyer & Bernstein will be retained because like Mowery, DiOrio, Lopez, Day, Davidson, Theure, and Parella the new lawyers will pledge their allegiance to the Führer.

USA320Pilot,

Cleary is being driven by the majority of pilots on this property. You mention angry east first officers above. You are way out of touch. Some of the most militant Cleary guys are very senior captains at this airline. You should show up at some union meetings. USA320pilot a few years ago the old guys at this airline finally had enough of the boy scout bull sheet. You have underestimated this pilot group from the beginning. You have been consistantly wrong.

USAPA best money ever spent.

Hate

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

clear,

Team Tempe doesn't want a contract. Deep down Dougie is a bar room brawler. He always plays the nice guy on the crew news.........right? He has loved every minute of this. Cheap labor. Most of us in the east have seen this show before. Team Tempe is about to get clocked in the bar fight. A joint contract will cost this outfit 400 to 500 million dollars per year. We know they don't want a contract. A win on LOA 93 for the east will be absolutley devistating for the west. I am really looking forward to the east attrition and my yearly 3 percent pay raise every May 1.

Hate

Amen Hate, not enough money in the Bank of DOUG to put these airlines together after an EAST pay raise, No Contract, No NIC, No lawsuits either, now where is this "ONE BIG DEAL LEFT, for the WEST going,(RISK!) nowhere good!

 

[Keroseneuser]

Let's say for argument sake there was desire and ability to negotiate what you call the middle. How do we know that you east pilots will live up to this agreement? You said you agreed to final and binding arbitration. what happens if the majority of east pilots don't like the next deal? You going to want to find a "new middle"? Where does it end?

Not talking about arbitration or negotiating in that sense. No way to negotiate anyhow since the west is in the same union as the east. Any contract will have to be voted in by the membership. Work up a T/A with the company on the pay rates and normal company stuff with both sides sticking together on that part. Then when we get something decent from Doug and crowd (If we get something decent) Then pick a middle of the road list, fences whatever, maybe send out a what if questionairre to all the pilots east and west see what will be possible to get voted in. Try enough options and we are bound to find something that will work to get a T/A passed.

The alternative is wait an indefinate amount of time till the courts figure it out, or wait until 2020 when attrition drops the top 1600 from the east list. Until 2020 there is enough East guys to squash any attempt to vote in NIC. The east guys will never vote for anything with NIC in it as it stands now. And if the east wins LOA 93 probably nothing could get voted in till attrition cuts half the east list off, but not even sure then since the 1600 + east newhires won't want to vote for NIC since it will adversly affect their positions by then.

To Boeing Boy and his statement previous page about the 25 newhires a month. Yeah we all hear this and that. But the newhire classes have been steady for the last few months at 8 or so a month. And currently there is at least a 330 Capt transition and a 319 upgrade class running in the CLT schoolhouse as we speak, so we are losing pilots somewhere before anybody hits 65. Time will tell on the 25 a month. But the fact is we are hiring now, and upgrading now a full year before age 65 kicks in so I don't consider 25 a month starting january to be impossible. Especially considering how bad the training float got back in 99 and 2000. Had guys sitting at home getting paid for 2 and 3 months waiting for sim space to open up so they could finish transition or upgrade. Had the long delays and that was using Uniteds sims in DEN and any other bus or 73 sim they could scrounge time in. Even had some guys going to Paris to train in Airbus's sims trying to keep up. Had the same issues in 2007 and 8 also and that was without all the new busses coming on line.

At present we have I think 4 bus sims in CLT with the new one they added last year. Don't know how many in PHX, never been there. Does not take too much of a float to choke the training snake. The days of being able to train 50 or 100 a month are long gone with the reduced fleet types and limited sims.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If you look at the permanent bid packets for the east, there is attrition every bid, just not age 65 attrition which is where the bigger numbers are. Generally, more people go out on medical than return and there is a dribble of early retirements (at least I assume so since the bid packet doesn't say how many change their mind). I haven't really tracked the numbers, but 5-10 a month sounds about right. At the high end of that, and looking ahead toward the age 65 retirements kicking in, there may be a need for no more than about 200 replacements in 2013. But till toward the end of 2012 the dribble of hiring is about all you can expect. Assuming the fleet size remains static (+/- 1 or 2 planes), which I assume will be the case. Any changes up or down more than that would obviously alter the numbers needed. No more than 10% of attrition is needed for training float with a static fleet, and the lead time is 2-3 months, i.e., 100 line pilot retirements and 30 early/medical means no more than 13 pilots for the training float in 2013.

Oh, that's just east BTW.

Jim

 

[Keroseneuser]

Another thing they may be looking at is the impending LOA 93 ruling. I think no matter which way it goes we are going to see more numbers retire. There are many out there that say they are waiting on that. Either take the money and run if its a win, or say screw it if its not and run their side thing fulltime.

 

[BoeingBoy]

That is an unknown. Pilots can say anything, but when the paperwork is in and that last day is approaching fast they often change their minds. Back when I was doing the bid closings, the rule of thumb was that about 50% of pilots that put in for early retirement changed their minds. That was a change the concessions produced - retiring early after 25 or more years of service and on late 90's/very early 2000's pay was one thing but doing it now cuts into the 50% or so left of what was retirement "pay" back then.

In late summer of 2002, before BK1, I was told to retire if I wanted my full retirement benefit (adjusted for going 4+ years early). I didn't, and retired in late 2006 with about half the benefit I would have gotten in 2002. The paycheck was too attractive and in 2002 I still thought I'd have a year or so on the 75/76 and a year on the 330 before I retired. Take the wife on my trips, see Europe, and all that.

On the other hand, I still can't understand pilots wanting to fly till 65 - didn't when the "old guys" were clamoring to be able to and still can't. Better you all than me...I wouldn't have given up the last 5 years of retirement to fly for what I made in the late 90's/early 2000's. No way I'd do it for LOA 93 pay.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

The West MEC knew better, and should have heeded the warnings at Wye, the fact they have supposedly nobody to negotiate, is their own fault. PS I hear the lights went out at the 11th floor LOA Tempe Hoedown, perhaps some bad news and bad predictions? A bad hair day for Tempe?


Bill Wilder



Bill_Wilder says:
August 19, 2009 at 12:24 pm
It may well be true that now that USAPA is the representative “there is no one to negotiate with” for the West pilots. The East MEC raised that very danger to the West MEC during its efforts to settle the dispute (including the Wye River) effort as the reason why the two MEC’s needed to resolve the dispute. Again, though, the West MEC refused to heed that warning and engage settlement negotiations.

OMG! You are a one trick pony. Have you got any argument other than a single blog by Wilder? He is not the end all be all lawyer in the world. You have posted Wilder how many times?