US Pilots Labor Discussion

[apollo]

You know you are one of his many screen names. No west pilot would post what you do! 🙂 Well, maybe Johnny would. You're a FOC or Johnny, but who cares really? Both irrelevant.

There's your waffle Apollo. Enjoy.

In the alpa and west pilots fantasy, you are their only contender.

 

[Move2CLT]

Yep, that was me.

 

[Pi brat]

In the alpa and west pilots fantasy, you are their only contender.

Oh thanks, that was sweet.

Well, the way USAPA leadership has been handling things, I'd say some would beg to differ. Since I won't be running for office, we will see what you can pull off. It's yours to lose!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Ok, no I will take your numbers. 400 million left in cash, a month before the merger, the summer(pretty good cash flow month, right?)with PRASM growing right? So by then, the cash burn should have been dwindling and that $400 million or so went to...........the new company. I think that was more than AWA brought to the merger, right? Then all the other cash came in, debt refinanced, and in 2006 the company was making a pretty nice profit, a profit that didn't all come from the AWA side right?

Do some reading up on airline accounting - I don't have time to tutor you. Maybe then you'll see why $400 million, for what was an approximately $10 Billion a year company, is broke. Especially when that was the minimum required per the ATSB backed loan after two re-negotiations of the minimum.

Yes it was slightly more than AWH had at that time as I recall, but AWH wasn't a $10 billion a year company. So AWH had better liquidity ratios than US.

You keep talking about the results of the merged company as if that means something about a stand-alone US, I guess in desperation trying to hold onto that fantasy that US was doing so well and AWH so poorly. It doesn't say anything about a stand-alone US - zip, nada, zilch. It was a different company after the merger - only the name stayed the same.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

I believe an Apollo post, cures boeing boys insomnia.

Nos, sum, a-pollo, whatever - you're the car wreck that people can't help slowing down and gawking at...regardless of your screen name of the day.

Jim

 

[mikey60]

Yep, that was me.

Correction: Yep, that was me the lier.

 

[mikey60]

Make the effort mikey. Find it on this board. You can do it!!!

FIND WHAT?

 

[Pi brat]

Do some reading up on airline accounting - I don't have time to tutor you. Maybe then you'll see why $400 million, for what was an approximately $10 Billion a year company, is broke. Especially when that was the minimum required per the ATSB backed loan after two re-negotiations of the minimum.

Yes it was slightly more than AWH had at that time as I recall, but AWH wasn't a $10 billion a year company. So AWH had better liquidity ratios than US.

You keep talking about the results of the merged company as if that means something about a stand-alone US, I guess in desperation trying to hold onto that fantasy that US was doing so well and AWH so poorly. It doesn't say anything about a stand-alone US - zip, nada, zilch. It was a different company after the merger - only the name stayed the same.

Jim

God you're an ass even when I take your word! No ####, $400 million is not a lot of cash for a $10 billion dollar company? Huh, might have been why we were in BANKRUPTCY? I've changed my mind with that little nugget of wisdom, you are the friggin' genius that you think you are!

That wasn't my point.

I have NEVER said that US was doing so great and AWA was doing so poorly. I have never said that absent this merger US would have thrived and AWA failed. You constantly take my words out of context and twist them. I've agreed that had US stayed on it's path it would be gone, and we don't know what AWA would have done, but although it's path was a little longer to the drop off, it's path was to oblivion too. My point was the NEITHER company stayed on their path ( I also made the point that we don't know if there were other paths available to either or both airlines. As they decided to do the merger the best anyone can do is lay odds, and they are worthless). They agreed to a merger(and guess what Jim, I don't think they started that planning on May 18 2005, I'm guessing it took a little while, huh?), that took them BOTH off their paths and on to what appears to at least be a longer one to oblivion. From that day forward "what might have been" for either company didn't matter, because it didn't happen! I bring up AWAs future because west pilots bring it up. It's like them saying "You had cancer, I only had 5 blocked arteries." Guess what? Either could have died, neither did, they got the treatment they needed.

Into that merger US took it's 400 million or so in cash, it's fleet, it's established route structure, it's membership into the Start Alliance, it's code share with UA. AWA took it's similar items, but for no money down, it became part of a much bigger airline, with much more breath and scope and the top management got to stay. You act as if US added nothing to the combined airline. YOU speak of the combined airline as if it says something about a stand alone AWA! Look at the 2006 results. Do you think AWA could have pulled that off on it's own?

The west guys constantly overstate AWA's financial health and not a peep out of you, Mr. Financial genius. One simple example: Dreamin' "double digit consecutive profitable quarters". Had that been an east guy making such an absurd comment about US you would have been all over them.

Both airlines needed something. US Airways need was more pressing, but it was the same need for both. And that is not just my opinion. It is shared by Doug Parker and Scott Kirby, they guys that, unlike you, were running AWA and are running US Airways.

 

[Pi brat]

You guys know what is so funny about these 2900 or so pages of bullXXXX? It's the same thing from both sides. Both of the hardliners from both side want the EXACT same thing: For USAPA to continue to be the CBA and the current leadership to stay in place. And both are absolutely convinced that with that happening THEIR side will win!

Here is a rare prediction from me: The "win" will be a long time coming, it will be bloody, and in the end it will be worth less than the winner thought it would be.

 

[Pi brat]

Now that we have sucessfully solved all of our problems, why don't we discuss something different. What do you guys think about SWA/AT? Seems like AT would love an offer like DOH with fences! 🙂

Sorry, it has just gotten too dang civil around here.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Like I figured, your mind is made up and nothing will change it. As much as you give US the benefit of doubt, you refuse to give AWH the same. You're convinced, for your own selfish reasons, that they were just a few steps behind US on that path to oblivion and no facts, nothing Parker says, nothing will change that. It's your blind adherence to that preconceived notion that I object to - the "west was right behind US", the "name the date US would have liquidated", "Parker says" a tidbit and you quote him but ignore what he says when it doesn't fit, blah, blah, blah.

But pay close attention to what Parker says - AWH would have in all likelihood filed BK in 2005 - NOT liquidate right after US. Parker does say that AWH couldn't exist as a stand-alone carrier in today's environment - 6 years after US would have liquidated. But I'd submit that even Parker's crystal ball isn't good enough to say with certainty what effect on the industry or AWH the liquidation of US would have had 6 years later. That liquidation would have removed 6-8% of domestic capacity - about what has been removed by all the carriers combined since then - which could have firmed up fares much sooner than happened with the merged US operating. It could reasonably be argued that HP, with it's low cost structure and even WN's increasing fares - would still be plugging along out west. Although you're convinced that that wouldn't be the case, I defy you to show otherwise.

You're as bad as you accuse the westies of being - pick out financial bits and pieces to support your unfounded belief, like citing 2006 results. How much has US lost since emerging from BK as a new airline? Do you even have a clue? Let's see your homework - how much would a stand-alone AWH have made or lost over the same time if US had been left to liquidate? You don't know because nobody knows. But we all know what would have happened to a stand-alone US, don't we. That future was too immediate to ignore - even if the creditors and the ATSB had let US burn every dime of it's cash it wouldn't have lasted through the winter of 2005-2006. There was no white knight waiting in the wings - just vultures waiting to pick over the remains.

Jim

 

[Res Judicata]

Nos, sum, a-pollo, whatever - you're the car wreck that people can't help slowing down and gawking at...regardless of your screen name of the day.

Jim

I just call him "Claxhole"

Sums him up in one nice, tidy package.

 

[Pi brat]

Like I figured, your mind is made up and nothing will change it. As much as you give US the benefit of doubt, you refuse to give AWH the same. You're convinced, for your own selfish reasons, that they were just a few steps behind US on that path to oblivion and no facts, nothing Parker says, nothing will change that. It's your blind adherence to that preconceived notion that I object to - the "west was right behind US", the "name the date US would have liquidated", "Parker says" a tidbit and you quote him but ignore what he says when it doesn't fit, blah, blah, blah.

But pay close attention to what Parker says - AWH would have in all likelihood filed BK in 2005 - NOT liquidate right after US. Parker does say that AWH couldn't exist as a stand-alone carrier in today's environment - 6 years after US would have liquidated. But I'd submit that even Parker's crystal ball isn't good enough to say with certainty what effect on the industry or AWH the liquidation of US would have had 6 years later. That liquidation would have removed 6-8% of domestic capacity - about what has been removed by all the carriers combined since then - which could have firmed up fares much sooner than happened with the merged US operating. It could reasonably be argued that HP, with it's low cost structure and even WN's increasing fares - would still be plugging along out west. Although you're convinced that that wouldn't be the case, I defy you to show otherwise.

You're as bad as you accuse the westies of being - pick out financial bits and pieces to support your unfounded belief, like citing 2006 results. How much has US lost since emerging from BK as a new airline? Do you even have a clue? Let's see your homework - how much would a stand-alone AWH have made or lost over the same time if US had been left to liquidate? You don't know because nobody knows. But we all know what would have happened to a stand-alone US, don't we. That future was too immediate to ignore - even if the creditors and the ATSB had let US burn every dime of it's cash it wouldn't have lasted through the winter of 2005-2006. There was no white knight waiting in the wings - just vultures waiting to pick over the remains.

Jim

Do you even read what I write before you tell me what I'm saying? You said "You're convinced, for your own selfish reasons, that they were just a few steps behind US on that path to oblivion ". Show me where I said that. I didn't, what I said was that Parker said they were on an unsustainable path. He said the larger major airlines restructuring was the Death knell for AWA. Death Knell:

death knell, bell
n
1. something that heralds death or destruction

Parker's words, not mine. The guy that actually had a little more information about both companies, not just a retired pilot in the basement with a computer. Parker's crystal ball is not good enough, but yours is?



I said AWA had a longer path, so we have no idea what they would have done to avoid that. He seems to think a fate similar to Frontier's was probable, and although it "could be argued", and you surly could, that martians would come down and finance AWA so they could buy the entire US airlines system, arguing is all it can be because you cannot prove what didn't happen. Even though over, and over and over again YOU try.

I see a few potential problems with your scenario for AWA. First, SW was better hedged than AWA, and with fuel prices rising and their hubs in two of the hardest hit areas of the country, SW might have put their sights on AWA. They were facing a cash crunch at the end of 2005. They may have found new financing, they predicted they would, but who knows. Had US liquidated, most of the seat would have been pulled from the east, and quickly filed by other carriers that were strong there. Not a real big help to AWA, and again it's not like they had tons of cash to jump into anything we had. They had already tried to jump into the Trans con market and had their rears handed to them. Remember those that said "If Easter will just shutdown we will be sitting pretty"? Did really help us that much, did it? And they were in our backyard. You could have been right, I could have been right, Parker could have been right but something else happened and we will never know. And that Jim is a FACT! We will never KNOW.

Your arrogance is matched only by your hatred for east pilots. Why have you spent page after page going after me to "prove" something that cannot be proven, but rarely point out the west absurd posts, like pre's "2005 active pilots" and Dreamin's "double digit consecutive profitable quarters"? Why, when years ago you wouldn't let much of anything USA320 posted go by, now I don't see many comments to him from you? A little biased?

You never answered me the other day when I asked you how you knew I "wasn't there" for your battles with USA. I was. Ever heard of a lurker?

 

[aquagreen73s]

Like I figured, your mind is made up and nothing will change it. As much as you give US the benefit of doubt, you refuse to give AWH the same. You're convinced, for your own selfish reasons, that they were just a few steps behind US on that path to oblivion and no facts, nothing Parker says, nothing will change that. It's your blind adherence to that preconceived notion that I object to - the "west was right behind US", the "name the date US would have liquidated", "Parker says" a tidbit and you quote him but ignore what he says when it doesn't fit, blah, blah, blah.

But pay close attention to what Parker says - AWH would have in all likelihood filed BK in 2005 - NOT liquidate right after US. Parker does say that AWH couldn't exist as a stand-alone carrier in today's environment - 6 years after US would have liquidated. But I'd submit that even Parker's crystal ball isn't good enough to say with certainty what effect on the industry or AWH the liquidation of US would have had 6 years later. That liquidation would have removed 6-8% of domestic capacity - about what has been removed by all the carriers combined since then - which could have firmed up fares much sooner than happened with the merged US operating. It could reasonably be argued that HP, with it's low cost structure and even WN's increasing fares - would still be plugging along out west. Although you're convinced that that wouldn't be the case, I defy you to show otherwise.

You're as bad as you accuse the westies of being - pick out financial bits and pieces to support your unfounded belief, like citing 2006 results. How much has US lost since emerging from BK as a new airline? Do you even have a clue? Let's see your homework - how much would a stand-alone AWH have made or lost over the same time if US had been left to liquidate? You don't know because nobody knows. But we all know what would have happened to a stand-alone US, don't we. That future was too immediate to ignore - even if the creditors and the ATSB had let US burn every dime of it's cash it wouldn't have lasted through the winter of 2005-2006. There was no white knight waiting in the wings - just vultures waiting to pick over the remains.

Jim

Great post. Thanks Jim.

 

[Move2CLT]

Great post. Thanks Jim.

Yes Jim, great post. Nice to see others putting Pi in his place.