US Pilots Labor Discussion

[mrbreeze]

Breeze doesn't want to think about PIT/BOS/LGA/GSO/SYR/MIA and the west coast bases or the 400+ airplanes that shrunk by almost half since it upsets his little fairy tale...

Jim

Yep...hate to see all that take place, but hey, thanks to our $9 billion contribution, we are still here.

You got yours though, right. What, Davey dollars, along with around $68k/yr from the PBGC? The rest of us have no chance at that kind of nest egg. And you call me a greedy bastard!

breeze

 

[A320 Driver]

Don't know, is your mother still available?

Yep, but she is not LCC management...

 

[luvn737s]

Yep...hate to see all that take place, but hey, thanks to our $9 billion contribution, we are still here.

So how much did you end up paying yourself per year? I would characterize it more as spending $9 billion on lottery tickets and still not winning the $10million lottery.

Perhaps someone should have re-thought the whole "Full Pay To The Last Day" concept a little sooner. Just sayin'...

 

[cleardirect]

So boys and girls merger mania is in the air. We all know that you east pilots are dead set on DOH and think that is the only fair way to integrate. At least in this merger because we know that east pilots have pushed different methods for different mergers.

A couple questions.
If we merge with AA are you going to demand DOH again?

American has 980 furloughed pilots. Will you demand that the AA pilots get their DOH disregarding that they are furloughed?

I am not sure what DOH the Eagle pilots are getting when they come to mainline. What if Eagle pilots are getting their Eagle DOH but don’t become qualified until several years later. Could be a difference of 5-8-10 years. Will you demand DOH or the date that they became qualified as mainline pilots? Remember the MDA argument?

With the Nicolau award you all think that wide bodies are super premium and deserved “super seniority”. Nicolau placed the 517 WB pilots at the top of the list and you all thought that was correct. AA has 120 WB plus 124 757’s for a total of 244 premium aircraft. US Airways has 26 WB plus 24 757 for a total of 50 premium aircraft. Should the arbitrator consider WB premium flying and place them at the top of a combined list? Think about your answer. The top 3400 AA pilots would be mixed in with 700 US Airways pilots before the first domestic US Airways pilots. Willing to give up that kind of numbers? You guys argued that was correct in our merger.

Take a look at the pilot numbers. If we merge, US Airways would be about 1/3 the size of AA just like the west is now. What if they pull what the east pilots pulled? Majority rules, majority makes the rules and decide that they get to decide how the seniority will integrate. You guys have made a lot of situational arguments. How are those arguments going to stand up in an AA/ US Airways merger?

 

[prechilill]

So boys and girls merger mania is in the air. We all know that you east pilots are dead set on DOH and think that is the only fair way to integrate. At least in this merger because we know that east pilots have pushed different methods for different mergers.

A couple questions.
If we merge with AA are you going to demand DOH again?

American has 980 furloughed pilots. Will you demand that the AA pilots get their DOH disregarding that they are furloughed?

I am not sure what DOH the Eagle pilots are getting when they come to mainline. What if Eagle pilots are getting their Eagle DOH but don’t become qualified until several years later. Could be a difference of 5-8-10 years. Will you demand DOH or the date that they became qualified as mainline pilots? Remember the MDA argument?

With the Nicolau award you all think that wide bodies are super premium and deserved “super seniority”. Nicolau placed the 517 WB pilots at the top of the list and you all thought that was correct. AA has 120 WB plus 124 757’s for a total of 244 premium aircraft. US Airways has 26 WB plus 24 757 for a total of 50 premium aircraft. Should the arbitrator consider WB premium flying and place them at the top of a combined list? Think about your answer. The top 3400 AA pilots would be mixed in with 700 US Airways pilots before the first domestic US Airways pilots. Willing to give up that kind of numbers? You guys argued that was correct in our merger.

Take a look at the pilot numbers. If we merge, US Airways would be about 1/3 the size of AA just like the west is now. What if they pull what the east pilots pulled? Majority rules, majority makes the rules and decide that they get to decide how the seniority will integrate. You guys have made a lot of situational arguments. How are those arguments going to stand up in an AA/ US Airways merger?

It's called poetic justice...

 

[cactusboy53]

crew news, talk about a bunch of clowns....

how embarassing....

I"m glad Scott called the 1st one out... what was she talking about?

Embarrassing (correct spelling BTW)? I thought the pilot in CLT that boo-hoo'd to Doug: "Why can't you just give us pay parity???"......"We need a pay parity...." was very embarrassing. Doug and Scott have told you OVER & OVER again that your pay parity will come in the form of a new contract.

One thing that I did get from Scott Kirby's presentation was that "Kirby Proposal has been on the table for "....and "it's a good STARTING POINT 4 years ago". Further it represents a 16% overall increase (if accepted in its present form) in wage and benefits (almost all of which the east pilot will realize).

Now if Scott Kirby says that the KP is a GOOD STARTING POINT FOUR YEARS AGO, what kind of a wage do you think we could muster up to?

Conversely USAPA's openers will presently cost the company 1.1 Billion dollars in the first year. Why don't you try to negotiate the KP up to DAL wages and put it up for a vote? Give it a shot! 😀 😀 😀

 

[PullUp]

So boys and girls merger mania is in the air. We all know that you east pilots are dead set on DOH and think that is the only fair way to integrate. At least in this merger because we know that east pilots have pushed different methods for different mergers.

A couple questions.
If we merge with AA are you going to demand DOH again?

American has 980 furloughed pilots. Will you demand that the AA pilots get their DOH disregarding that they are furloughed?

I am not sure what DOH the Eagle pilots are getting when they come to mainline. What if Eagle pilots are getting their Eagle DOH but don’t become qualified until several years later. Could be a difference of 5-8-10 years. Will you demand DOH or the date that they became qualified as mainline pilots? Remember the MDA argument?

With the Nicolau award you all think that wide bodies are super premium and deserved “super seniority”. Nicolau placed the 517 WB pilots at the top of the list and you all thought that was correct. AA has 120 WB plus 124 757’s for a total of 244 premium aircraft. US Airways has 26 WB plus 24 757 for a total of 50 premium aircraft. Should the arbitrator consider WB premium flying and place them at the top of a combined list? Think about your answer. The top 3400 AA pilots would be mixed in with 700 US Airways pilots before the first domestic US Airways pilots. Willing to give up that kind of numbers? You guys argued that was correct in our merger.

Take a look at the pilot numbers. If we merge, US Airways would be about 1/3 the size of AA just like the west is now. What if they pull what the east pilots pulled? Majority rules, majority makes the rules and decide that they get to decide how the seniority will integrate. You guys have made a lot of situational arguments. How are those arguments going to stand up in an AA/ US Airways merger?

DOH, yes. With fences, yes.
Cheers.

 

[fatherabraham]

So boys and girls merger mania is in the air. We all know that you east pilots are dead set on DOH and think that is the only fair way to integrate.........

Clear,

Yes there are interesting similarities. I am certain of very little in this world, however i would bet every last dollar that the folks at AA would shut it down if they were exposed to Nic and the west (lottery ticket) in any shape or manor. Guarantee they and all else have again learned what to avoid from this merger.

FA

 

[prechilill]

DOH, yes. With fences, yes.
Cheers.

Yes, DOH with fences worked quite well for the piedmont pilots. They still gush about how well things went immediately following the seniority integration with AAA and talk fondly of how it bolstered their careers.

 

[BoeingBoy]

thanks to our $9 billion contribution, we are still here.

Nope, thanks to the merger you are still here. Your contribution wasn't doing the trick since old US would have liquidated despite that $9 billion contribution. Truth's a #### isn't it...

Jim

 

[cactusboy53]

Since apollo & Claxon are so fond of historical documents, I thought I would put this one out as we approach the FOURTH anniversary:

December 20, 2007

Dear US Airways Pilot,

Yesterday, the Air Line Pilots Association officially submitted the seniority list from the ALPA arbitration award to US Airways. As you know, the company’s role in the seniority integration process is limited. The company, along with the East and West ALPA MEC’s, agreed in the September 2005 Transition Agreement that the integrated seniority list would be accomplished under the ALPA merger Policy and would be accepted by the company, provided it met the following criteria:

1. No “system flush” where an active pilot may displace any other active pilot from the latter’s position.

2. Furloughed pilots may not bump/displace active pilots.

3. There should be no requirement for pilots to be compensated for flying not performed (e.g., differential pay for a position not actually flown).

4. The list allows pilots who, at the time of the implementation of an integrated seniority list, are in the process of completing or who have completed initial qualification training for a new category (e.g., A320 Captain for 757 First Officer) to be assigned to the position for which they have been trained, regardless of the relative standing on the integrated seniority list.

5. The list does not contain conditions and restrictions that materially increase the costs associated with training or company paid moves.

We have determined that the list submitted meets these criteria, so the company will accept the submitted list. We have notified ALPA of our acceptance.

Of course, the list cannot be implemented without a single labor agreement covering all of our pilots. We are hopeful that the negotiations toward a single contract can resume in the near future. As this situation progresses, I’d ask that we continue to be respectful of each other’s positions, and professional as always,

Doug Parker


Least you had forgotten, the East members of the JNC had retreated per the AAA MEC's instructions much earlier in the year. This is why Doug was hoping for cooler minds to prevail and the East JNC would return to the table.

So to review: The Nicolau Award is THE ONLY SENIORITY list on Doug's desk that is APPROVED. Unless the courts give him a "bye" on which list he can legally use, the Nicolau list will be the ONLY SENIORITY LIST for this pilot group. Also remember that USAPA's own President & VP had already admitted in a published document that "No ALPA Seniority Integration result has ever been set aside by the courts..." (http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/Leonidas_Booklet_Issue_3.pdf).

 

[nic4us]

What is more important in the scheme of things and within the context of our remaining careers, having come this far for this long, with yet another merger possible - money and benefits - or a pecking order and a fourth stripe?

1984,

We will never get to increases in money and benefits while usapa persues the pecking order and fourth stripes.


Just read the nonsense the usapa supporters posted in the last 20 pages.

Breeze is on here arguing that essentially, he bought my job with his consessions prior to the merger.

Swan is arguing that the 9th's opinion is the end all be all of union bargaining proposals, because of an out of context blip of " is not the Nicolau award".

Luv9 has gone off the deep end, accusing the West of having more scabs than the east.


We have wasted four years, and are still right where we started. The Nic is the only accepted seniority list. The pilots are locked into their respective seperate ops sides of the TA. usapa is still an incopetent organization, only now it is getting deeply into debt at an increasing rate.

Therefore, having come this far, I am going to concentrate on health and family, because money and benefits are still out of the question, and I have long had the pecking order and fourth stripe.

 

[767jetz]

So boys and girls merger mania is in the air. We all know that you east pilots are dead set on DOH and think that is the only fair way to integrate. At least in this merger because we know that east pilots have pushed different methods for different mergers.

A couple questions.
If we merge with AA are you going to demand DOH again?

American has 980 furloughed pilots. Will you demand that the AA pilots get their DOH disregarding that they are furloughed?

I am not sure what DOH the Eagle pilots are getting when they come to mainline. What if Eagle pilots are getting their Eagle DOH but don’t become qualified until several years later. Could be a difference of 5-8-10 years. Will you demand DOH or the date that they became qualified as mainline pilots? Remember the MDA argument?

With the Nicolau award you all think that wide bodies are super premium and deserved “super seniority”. Nicolau placed the 517 WB pilots at the top of the list and you all thought that was correct. AA has 120 WB plus 124 757’s for a total of 244 premium aircraft. US Airways has 26 WB plus 24 757 for a total of 50 premium aircraft. Should the arbitrator consider WB premium flying and place them at the top of a combined list? Think about your answer. The top 3400 AA pilots would be mixed in with 700 US Airways pilots before the first domestic US Airways pilots. Willing to give up that kind of numbers? You guys argued that was correct in our merger.

Take a look at the pilot numbers. If we merge, US Airways would be about 1/3 the size of AA just like the west is now. What if they pull what the east pilots pulled? Majority rules, majority makes the rules and decide that they get to decide how the seniority will integrate. You guys have made a lot of situational arguments. How are those arguments going to stand up in an AA/ US Airways merger?

They will do what they always do... try to capture as much AA flying, particularly widebodies, as they can. This BS started long before your merger. In 2000, when UA was clearly acquiring US with cash, the owners of the company (that would be me and every other pilot and employee group that participated in ESOP), who LITERALLY bought their seat on the BOD and veto rights, insisted on a fair pre-nup that protected the premium aircraft UA had at the time. US pilots got greedy. They wanted DOH of course, with no or very short fences. Their mantra was "see you at arbitration." They even tried to compare their 330's with the 777. (yeah... right. How many 330's fly polar routes to Asia from the east coast?)

Now with their history clearly illustrated to all, the APA (and all the former TWA pilots) will hand them their a$$es if a merger like that ever happens.

 

[luvthe9]

So boys and girls merger mania is in the air. We all know that you east pilots are dead set on DOH and think that is the only fair way to integrate. At least in this merger because we know that east pilots have pushed different methods for different mergers.

A couple questions.
If we merge with AA are you going to demand DOH again?

Don't think you westies will have to worry about this much longer. I still think you will enjoy your new home.

 

[Black Swan]

Since apollo & Claxon are so fond of historical documents, I thought I would put this one out as we approach the FOURTH anniversary:

December 20, 2007

Dear US Airways Pilot,

Yesterday, the Air Line Pilots Association officially submitted the seniority list from the ALPA arbitration award to US Airways. As you know, the company’s role in the seniority integration process is limited. The company, along with the East and West ALPA MEC’s, agreed in the September 2005 Transition Agreement that the integrated seniority list would be accomplished under the ALPA merger Policy and would be accepted by the company, provided it met the following criteria:

1. No “system flush” where an active pilot may displace any other active pilot from the latter’s position.

2. Furloughed pilots may not bump/displace active pilots.

3. There should be no requirement for pilots to be compensated for flying not performed (e.g., differential pay for a position not actually flown).

4. The list allows pilots who, at the time of the implementation of an integrated seniority list, are in the process of completing or who have completed initial qualification training for a new category (e.g., A320 Captain for 757 First Officer) to be assigned to the position for which they have been trained, regardless of the relative standing on the integrated seniority list.

5. The list does not contain conditions and restrictions that materially increase the costs associated with training or company paid moves.

We have determined that the list submitted meets these criteria, so the company will accept the submitted list. We have notified ALPA of our acceptance.

Of course, the list cannot be implemented without a single labor agreement covering all of our pilots. We are hopeful that the negotiations toward a single contract can resume in the near future. As this situation progresses, I’d ask that we continue to be respectful of each other’s positions, and professional as always,

Doug Parker


Least you had forgotten, the East members of the JNC had retreated per the AAA MEC's instructions much earlier in the year. This is why Doug was hoping for cooler minds to prevail and the East JNC would return to the table.

So to review: The Nicolau Award is THE ONLY SENIORITY list on Doug's desk that is APPROVED. Unless the courts give him a "bye" on which list he can legally use, the Nicolau list will be the ONLY SENIORITY LIST for this pilot group. Also remember that USAPA's own President & VP had already admitted in a published document that "No ALPA Seniority Integration result has ever been set aside by the courts..." (http://leonidas.cactuspilots.us/Leonidas_Booklet_Issue_3.pdf).

So the 9th Court of Appeals, San Francisco when asked to provide a ruling, and did provide a ruling that said:


Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3


now means NOTHING according to you. And, the company is bound to use, a list the 9th said did not have to be used? This is where you continually set yourself up for disappointment. Because you just keep going against a legal decision that says Nicolau may NEVER be the methodology used to integrate these groups. You cannot go against the 9th, nor can the company. So who do we go with now? Cactusboy 53 and Doug Parker, or the courts? HMMMMM.