US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

I assume that they really mean fragmentation - selling planes, facilities, etc with presumably the employees necessary to operate those assets going along if they chose to. But no one can explain why Republic would be trying to get out of one money-losing operation only to get into a bigger "money-losing" (so they say) operation.

Jim

This is exactly my point.

Lets say Republic makes a deal with LCC and wants 100 A320s, and all the PHX gates. LCC operates something like 225 A320s. Who has the ones Republic wants? Who are the "employees necessary to operate those assets"?

Maybe Republic only wants CFM powered 320s to match their fleet, along with the PHX hub. hmmmm...east pilots cause of the airplanes, or West pilots cause of the domicile?


This entire fantasy stems from the east pilots misconception that AAA was not Aquired by AWA to form LCC. They still think it is their former airline, they just picked up 'lil ole America West, when their guy Lakefield did a merger deal, and that AWA is just a small regional subdivision of the new AAA.

 

[cleardirect]

Owners of Republic are agressive fellows and I wouldn't be surprised to see them make a run at PHX, just to expand. they would then take the West pilots down to a Republic contract.

It's not about profit to them at this point, it's about market share and getting extablished. Profits are on down the road.

breeze

Where do you guys come up with your fantasies? Republic "make a run at PHX". Do you think that PHX is for sale? Parker has repeatedly said that he wants to merge. not sell and get rid of capacity. He has also said that together the east and west is better than just the east. So if he were to sell the west he would lose control of that capacity. the only think that woud happen if Parker sold the west was the east would enter BK, again.

You guys keep dreaming of ways to stop the Nicolau but it will happen. Splitting the airline is not going to happen, DOH is not going to happen. You guys have been talking about this for a year. Move on boys your fantasy is dead. Accept reality.

We will be American before the west is split off. That is when the real fun will begin. Watching the east have majority rules shoved up your back side. Can't wait for the screams of how unfair the minority is being treated. When the AA guys start talking about WB flying. The 200 WB compared to the 26 US Airways has.

 

[Reed Richards]

You guys keep dreaming of ways to stop the Nicolau but it will happen. Splitting the airline is not going to happen, DOH is not going to happen. You guys have been talking about this for a year. Move on boys your fantasy is dead. Accept reality.

We will be American before the west is split off. That is when the real fun will begin. Watching the east have majority rules shoved up your back side. Can't wait for the screams of how unfair the minority is being treated. When the AA guys start talking about WB flying. The 200 WB compared to the 26 US Airways has.

Nic is already dead and buried. But go ahead and pontificate about what would or could have been..all you want.

As to the AMR wide bodies my personal opener to APA would be "We don't touch your current 777s in any way, and all we want is our pre merger wide bodies, and new deliveries in excess of those numbers on both sides. DOH with fences and restrictions to protect all the above."

This ain't rocket science if you are not trying to leap frog.

Now, in this fantasy poker game, somehow the PHX pilots would have a seat at the table also. Sorry, no wide bodies for you, other than new ones after the fact.

RR

 

[nic4us]

Nic is already dead and buried. But go ahead and pontificate about what would or could have been..all you want.

As to the AMR wide bodies my personal opener to APA would be "We don't touch your current 777s in any way, and all we want is our pre merger wide bodies, and new deliveries in excess of those numbers on both sides. DOH with fences and restrictions to protect all the above."

This ain't rocket science if you are not trying to leap frog.

Now, in this fantasy poker game, somehow the PHX pilots would have a seat at the table also. Sorry, no wide bodies for you, other than new ones after the fact.

RR

And of course their reply will be, and your DOH is the PID, you will go below any pilot already on the AMR list, and your fences only apply to your domiciles that will likely close.

Where did the Nic get buried, other than in three ongoing federal court cases and an NMB mediated contract talks?

 

[doh nogo]

my personal opener to APA would be "We don't touch your current 777s in any way, and all we want is our pre merger wide bodies, and new deliveries in excess of those numbers on both sides.

So what happens when they tell you:
- any new WB deliveries are not growth aircraft. AA reduced capacity, so anything we get due to this merger is not growth until we are back up to our prior glory. Then you can start sharing growth aircraft.

- All TWA pilots come back before any previously furloughed east pilots because everyone knows that TWA pilots paid the ultimate sacrifice to get AA to this point. After all, the new airline is called AMERICAN, so you are being added to our list.

- We don't care what any arbitrator says. If we don't get our way we will just stone wall the process until all you AFO's retire, on LOA93 btw since you won't get parity until the seniority dispute is resolved. And until then AA will steam along and take all growth. After a good 5 years or so we will look back then determine our lots in life and see how much AA has grown and US has shrunk.

- Lastly, let's not forget that we've already witnessed your behavior and since we have the majority, you can suck it up until we get our way. So sad.

Now, in this fantasy poker game, somehow the PHX pilots would have a seat at the table also. Sorry, no wide bodies for you, other than new ones after the fact.

RR

Quite the imagination you have there. There is no east or west pilot in this fantasy. Just AMR and LCC, and the Nic will be the basis for any SLI starting point. How do we know this? Because a contract will happen before any seniority is determined. Once the contract is agreed to, the Nic is done and the new seniority integration can begin. If not, APA just votes in a new Bargaining Agent and imposes their will on US with cleverly worded C&BL's.

You guys are so clueless. You really have no idea how the rest of the piloting world views you. They don't want to touch you with a 20 meter pole. And if forced to, they will beat you down with their numbers, and probably with the support of the west too. There's a reason they are known as Sky Nazis.

 

[doh nogo]

Can't wait for the screams of how unfair the minority is being treated. When the AA guys start talking about WB flying. The 200 WB compared to the 26 US Airways has.

Oh don't worry. It will happen. Just look at their history. We are not the first ones they thought they were entitled to force their will upon. The funny thing will be seeing the west throw their support behind APA against the east. All they have to do is use the Nic as the starting point and the east will be so outnumbered, they'll be begging for a seat in the room, let alone at the table.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Oh don't worry. It will happen. Just look at their history. We are not the first ones they thought they were entitled to force their will upon. The funny thing will be seeing the west throw their support behind APA against the east. All they have to do is use the Nic as the starting point and the east will be so outnumbered, they'll be begging for a seat in the room, let alone at the table.

Sorry, won't happen, take a good look at your scope provision, NO JOINT CONTRACT NO NIC!, you'll be lucky to be around, BTW the WEST has how many WB's!

 

[SparrowHawk]

With the size of AA being what it is, unless I'm not understanding correctly is that they are large enough to staple the US pilots to the bottom of their seniority lists and essentially there is nothing US pilots can do about it?

Boyo, Boyo that would be a giant splash of Karmic Justice now wouldn't it?

 

[luvthe9]

With the size of AA being what it is, unless I'm not understanding correctly is that they are large enough to staple the US pilots to the bottom of their seniority lists and essentially there is nothing US pilots can do about it?

Boyo, Boyo that would be a giant splash of Karmic Justice now wouldn't it?

Yes, the American boys will be all for the Nic. The Nic, which puts a bunch of 30 and 40 somethings who can't wait their turn, ahead of a bunch of guys averaging age around 57 yrs old. So then when they merge, the younger guys are relatively ahead of all the AA guys. It will never happen for that very reason. The AA guys are smart enough to see the demographics, and they will want the West as far down any list they can pull off.

 

[767jetz]

Sorry, won't happen, take a good look at your scope provision, NO JOINT CONTRACT NO NIC!, you'll be lucky to be around, BTW the WEST has how many WB's!

I believe dohnogo already told you that his premise was based on the probable fact that there WILL be a contract BEFORE any SLI with AA. Just like ALPA merger policy that prohibits SLI before a JCBA to preempt a bunch of angry malcontent crybabies like yourselves from holding the rest of the world hostage until you get your way.

You won't even be able to present your wild fantasies to anyone until after a JCBA. That means in this hypothetical situation of a AA/US merger, there WILL be a JCBA first. That means NIC and then McCaskill. Like it or not, there are no future transactions of any sort (merger, takeover, or the favorite fantasy of the the day... sell off of the west) until your current SLI is resolved. No one wants your headaches at any price.

 

[doh nogo]

Yes, the American boys will be all for the Nic. The Nic, which puts a bunch of 30 and 40 somethings who can't wait their turn, ahead of a bunch of guys averaging age around 57 yrs old. So then when they merge, the younger guys are relatively ahead of all the AA guys. It will never happen for that very reason. The AA guys are smart enough to see the demographics, and they will want the West as far down any list they can pull off.

WRONG. The APA, like every other group including UA and DL, want nothing to do with you. They are smart enough to realize that every SLI turns on it's own facts and merit. McCaskill will protect their WB flying and their premerger attrition, no matter where LCC pilots are on the NIC. As it should be. While most AA pilots will. That is their career expectation.

Bottom line is that a large percentage of LCC pilots will never see the WB, even those brought to the table BECAUSE of the demographics you refer to. You know as well as I that a large number of east pilots would never see the inside of a 330 based on their age and the few slots. Heck, many were going to retire from the right seat. They (APA) do not have the stomach for our headaches and your Bull $H1T. They want a DFR proof, certified list at the PID before any SLI between APA and LCC starts. Therefore Nic will be the list, as determined by the courts. And you will stay on LOA 93 indefinitely until you realize it. Even in a merger, the new transition agreement will keep everything as is until a new JCBA and SLI is done.

Sleep in the bed you have made.

 

[doh nogo]

I believe dohnogo already told you that his premise was based on the probable fact that there WILL be a contract BEFORE any SLI with AA. Just like ALPA merger policy that prohibits SLI before a JCBA to preempt a bunch of angry malcontent crybabies like yourselves from holding the rest of the world hostage until you get your way.

You won't even be able to present your wild fantasies to anyone until after a JCBA. That means in this hypothetical situation of a AA/US merger, there WILL be a JCBA first. That means NIC and then McCaskill. Like it or not, there are no future transactions of any sort (merger, takeover, or the favorite fantasy of the the day... sell off of the west) until your current SLI is resolved. No one wants your headaches at any price.

You are exactly right.

The east can't seem to fathom that other people have no interest in screwing the rest of the world to advance their agenda after a legal process that ended in binding arbitration. APA is smart enough to see the NIC for what it is... a fair enough, legally binding, DFR proof solution to our problem, and the starting point for any new SLI. They will not care about the east furloughs, the PI pilots, the Shuttle pilots, or anyone else. Our past, and particularly that of the east is not their concern. The only thing USAPA had going for it until now is the majority, complacency of those who let their leaders run amok, and enough blind arrogance to actually execute a plan with no exit. If a merger with AA happens, all that will be irrelevant, as will the east pilots who support USAPA.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I believe dohnogo already told you that his premise was based on the probable fact that there WILL be a contract BEFORE any SLI with AA. Just like ALPA merger policy that prohibits SLI before a JCBA to preempt a bunch of angry malcontent crybabies like yourselves from holding the rest of the world hostage until you get your way.

You won't even be able to present your wild fantasies to anyone until after a JCBA. That means in this hypothetical situation of a AA/US merger, there WILL be a JCBA first. That means NIC and then McCaskill. Like it or not, there are no future transactions of any sort (merger, takeover, or the favorite fantasy of the the day... sell off of the west) until your current SLI is resolved. No one wants your headaches at any price.

 

[Reed Richards]

Quite the imagination you have there. There is no east or west pilot in this fantasy. Just AMR and LCC, and the Nic will be the basis for any SLI starting point. How do we know this? Because a contract will happen before any seniority is determined. Once the contract is agreed to, the Nic is done and the new seniority integration can begin. If not, APA just votes in a new Bargaining Agent and imposes their will on US with cleverly worded C&BL's.

Doug has already brought up the situation of a new "three way" in one of his crew sessions a while back. Solves a lot of his “supposed” problems. That is exactly what will happen if we are not already integrated via ratified contract. I have no doubt (a little birdie told me!) the NMB will grant the PHX base its own status in such a three way. As I have said before here, it will be up to USAPA to fund a separate legal and merger team for the West (yes, “West.”)

The arbitration that might follow would indeed be “binding.”

As to your knowledge of a contract being assured before any M & A, please tell me exactly how you know that would happen? I know this...any such contract would have to go out for a vote. Do you really think the East pilots are going to vote to put "17 year pilots below new hires?" Never happen.

Should be interesting to see what comes out of APA in the next few days. I don’t know whether the current rapid attrition over there gives them any bargaining power, but it sure looks like some sort of T/A is on the way.

RR

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Its called fragmentation! There is no West value there will ne no jcba with the nic to bargain just a bunch of West crybabies!