US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Code Name V]

Nic is already dead and buried. But go ahead and pontificate about what would or could have been..all you want.

As to the AMR wide bodies my personal opener to APA would be "We don't touch your current 777s in any way, and all we want is our pre merger wide bodies, and new deliveries in excess of those numbers on both sides. DOH with fences and restrictions to protect all the above."

This ain't rocket science if you are not trying to leap frog.

Now, in this fantasy poker game, somehow the PHX pilots would have a seat at the table also. Sorry, no wide bodies for you, other than new ones after the fact.

RR

RR, This one would likely be the easiest of all. It would almost not matter how the list turned out with a 10-12 yr. fence and maintaining status quo fleet size and min block hours. The AA guys are no dummies. They would likely jump all over a DOH w/freeze. It would be a no loose deal. They don't need to fight and they sure as hell understand the damage the Nic would cause where the youngsters would be placed ahead of them when the freeze was up.

V

 

[nic4us]

Doug has already brought up the situation of a new "three way" in one of his crew sessions a while back. Solves a lot of his “supposed” problems. That is exactly what will happen if we are not already integrated via ratified contract. I have no doubt (a little birdie told me!) the NMB will grant the PHX base its own status in such a three way. As I have said before here, it will be up to USAPA to fund a separate legal and merger team for the West (yes, “West.”)

The arbitration that might follow would indeed be “binding.”

As to your knowledge of a contract being assured before any M & A, please tell me exactly how you know that would happen? I know this...any such contract would have to go out for a vote. Do you really think the East pilots are going to vote to put "17 year pilots below new hires?" Never happen.

Should be interesting to see what comes out of APA in the next few days. I don’t know whether the current rapid attrition over there gives them any bargaining power, but it sure looks like some sort of T/A is on the way.

RR

Threeway would never happen.


Single carrier status genie was let out of the bottle years ago. Can't put it back now.

Nope, in an LCC/AMR merger, the entire LCC list will get screwed, and the LCC list used will be the Nic.

 

[Rookie Jr]

Doug has already brought up the situation of a new "three way" in one of his crew sessions a while back. Solves a lot of his “supposed” problems. That is exactly what will happen if we are not already integrated via ratified contract. I have no doubt (a little birdie told me!) the NMB will grant the PHX base its own status in such a three way. As I have said before here, it will be up to USAPA to fund a separate legal and merger team for the West (yes, “West.”)

The arbitration that might follow would indeed be “binding.”

As to your knowledge of a contract being assured before any M & A, please tell me exactly how you know that would happen? I know this...any such contract would have to go out for a vote. Do you really think the East pilots are going to vote to put "17 year pilots below new hires?" Never happen.

Should be interesting to see what comes out of APA in the next few days. I don’t know whether the current rapid attrition over there gives them any bargaining power, but it sure looks like some sort of T/A is on the way.

RR

So, in your post you assume the NMB will reverse its decision to make the pilot group one, throw the AWA pilots out to self fund their newfound independence and all the while requiring them to fund usapa. Then, subsequent arbitration will be binding but not the previous arbitration... because you say so.

Then, because east pilots (who will now be greatly outnumbered) will vote against a contract it won't happen.
Do you really think this is even possible? I certainly don't.

I see Parker offering a fairly decent contract, as he did when trying to obtain Delta, and the majority taking it. Nicolau will be used (because it will then be the path of least resistance for the company and APA) and you guys on the east either accepting it or quitting.

 

[Reed Richards]

Its called fragmentation! There is no West value there will ne no jcba with the nic to bargain just a bunch of West crybabies!

Fragmentation is a possible threat (or blessing) to either side. Difference is under the East Scope it will be USAPA that determines who and what goes where, with some Easter Eggs thrown in if things get really hairy.

Under the West Scope the pilots can make a wish, but the Company is under no obligation to honor it. Read "Company's choice."

Separate contracts. Separate Scopes.

East Scope (despite having been slightly diluted in LOA 93) is still some of the strongest in the industry. The West essentially has no Scope. Wilder knew that years ago, and warned accordingly.

RR

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Fragmentation is a possible threat (or blessing) to either side. Difference is under the East Scope it will be USAPA that determines who and what goes where, with some Easter Eggs thrown in if things get really hairy.

Under the West Scope the pilots can make a wish, but the Company is under no obligation to honor it. Read "Company's choice."

Separate contracts. Separate Scopes.

East Scope (despite having been slightly diluted in LOA 93) is still some of the strongest in the industry. The West essentially has no Scope. Wilder knew that years ago, and warned accordingly.

RR

Simplest solution, for a corp to shed dead weight and all the burden of a lawsuit, just like a pro players contract being sold to some other entity, Wilder was dead on, just took awhile to get to this place in the future! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

So, in your post you assume the NMB will reverse its decision to make the pilot group one, throw the AWA pilots out to self fund their newfound independence and all the while requiring them to fund usapa. Then, subsequent arbitration will be binding but not the previous arbitration... because you say so.

Then, because east pilots (who will now be greatly outnumbered) will vote against a contract it won't happen.
Do you really think this is even possible? I certainly don't.

I see Parker offering a fairly decent contract, as he did when trying to obtain Delta, and the majority taking it. Nicolau will be used (because it will then be the path of least resistance for the company and APA) and you guys on the east either accepting it or quitting.

Let the F/A path be your guide! Get a new prescription for those glasses!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I believe dohnogo already told you that his premise was based on the probable fact that there WILL be a contract BEFORE any SLI with AA. Just like ALPA merger policy that prohibits SLI before a JCBA to preempt a bunch of angry malcontent crybabies like yourselves from holding the rest of the world hostage until you get your way.

You won't even be able to present your wild fantasies to anyone until after a JCBA. That means in this hypothetical situation of a AA/US merger, there WILL be a JCBA first. That means NIC and then McCaskill. Like it or not, there are no future transactions of any sort (merger, takeover, or the favorite fantasy of the the day... sell off of the west) until your current SLI is resolved. No one wants your headaches at any price.

How's that JCBA goin by years end? BTW jetz a corporate transaction doesn't require a JCBA! Contracts are bought and sold everday!

 

[Res Judicata]

How's that JCBA goin by years end? BTW jetz a corporate transaction doesn't require a JCBA! Contracts are bought and sold everday!

You guys already showed your true colors. Nobody trusts you to abide by any agreements you make. Therefore, expect zero wiggle room in the next merger. AOL will put all parties on crystal clear notice as well.

 

[flypg]

So, in your post you assume the NMB will reverse its decision to make the pilot group one, throw the AWA pilots out to self fund their newfound independence and all the while requiring them to fund usapa. Then, subsequent arbitration will be binding but not the previous arbitration... because you say so.
it's time
Then, because east pilots (who will now be greatly outnumbered) will vote against a contract it won't happen.
Do you really think this is even possible? I certainly don't.

I see Parker offering a fairly decent contract, as he did when trying to obtain Delta, and the majority taking it. Nicolau will be used (because it will then be the path of least resistance for the company and APA) and you guys on the east either accepting it or quitting.

When are you guys...the ones half reasonable like you R Jr, figure out that you can't bring up a new hire over a 10 year plus guy ? Here or at AMR or anywhere else for that matter.

Please spare us the the drunk Dog fairly decent contract... No way, no how. Binding you say ? guess what, it's DOH on the east right now as well as on the West. Get used to it or let the Army of L know you want/need to move on or maybe left out next round of M/A...

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

You guys already showed your true colors. Nobody trusts you to abide by any agreements you make. Therefore, expect zero wiggle room in the next merger. AOL will put all parties on crystal clear notice as well.

Here's some crystal clear notice, "you have no joint CBA, you have no list" the company is free to pedal any transaction EAST or WEST as the stock holders see fit!, It's all about "RISK" remember that term? MM! They can sell any contract to any buyer!

 

[BoeingBoy]

As to the AMR wide bodies my personal opener to APA would be "We don't touch your current 777s in any way, and all we want is our pre merger wide bodies, and new deliveries in excess of those numbers on both sides. DOH with fences and restrictions to protect all the above."

Interesting opener. Of course, that means that the east would expect a goodly share of the AA 767-200/300 seats (they have 73 vs 10 for US). Plus a goodly share of the AA 757 seats (AA 124, US 24). Plus a share of new deliveries of 767/777 that AA has on order (US 0). Plus, if the C&R's look anything like what's been offered to the westies there'd be little protection. And you really think APA or the American pilots would jump on that? If so, they've probably got some bridges and swampland to sell you first...

My guess is that AA pilots might settle for relative position by equip/model/seat (giving them the top of the list for the 777/767-300) then a ratio for the rest determined by the number of each equivalent type (7.3 AA pilots to 1 US pilot for the 7672, 5 AA to 1 US for the 757, etc). But that definitely wouldn't be their opener. Of course, you could push for arbitration - when was the last DOH arbitration award?

Jim

 

[mrbreeze]

Sorry. George Nicolau, (the arbitrator you chose) slotted me in with the East 1984 hires.

I still lost a few percent and I'm not happy about it but a deal is a deal.

That probably gives you a hire date of around 1998, so you were probably still in high school when the rest of us were hired....no way you're going ahead of us on SLI, junior. Obviously, we will do whatever is necessary to keep from getting that kind of screw job and you guys are naive to think anything different....especially since the NIC was flawed to start with.

breeze

 

[BoeingBoy]

Obviously, we will do whatever is necessary to keep from getting that kind of screw job and you guys are naive to think anything different....especially since the NIC was flawed to start with.

breeze

So what do you (as a group) do if the courts rule that you have to use the Nic? Quit?

You're entitled to your opinion that the Nic was flawed, but the only entity that will ever rule on that said otherwise - the ALPA BOD. In your rush to throw ALPA off the property so you could "get around the Nic" you forfeited any chance to ever prove otherwise.

Jim

 

[aquagreen73s]

AOL will put all parties on crystal clear notice as well.

Damn straight.

 

[mikey60]

If the shoe fits!!

Size 13 right up your a$$.