US Pilots Labor Discussion

[aquagreen73s]

It's a tangled web they weave trying to convince themselves that the Nic is DOA. "It was only a proposal" - yes, until presented to and accepted by the company as meeting the conditions set out in the transition agreement. At that point it became the SLI of the pilots of LCC. "But SCOTUS said USAPA only has to negotiate a SLI that's "reasonable yada, yada, yada" - yes, if USAPA hadn't inherited the SLI from ALPA. But USAPA wants to change the Nic it inherited - different standard - at the least a change has to promote the interests of unionism to the benefit of all members. NOT take from one group so another group can have more. Then there's the TA - which binds the company contractually (not to ALPA merger policy but to the result of that policy since ALPA was the CBA for the entire SLI process). Why else is the company in court seeking a DJ? (Oh, there goes that "delay negotiations" straw floating by - grab it quick") To have a judge rule whether the company is indeed contractually committed to the Nic by the TA and for no other reason. After escaping being dragged into the seniority mess in Addington, the last thing the company wants is to voluntarily put themselves in the legal liability bullseye.

Jim

If there weren't so much context involved, this would have made the perfect Geico commercial....so easy even a cave man can understand it.

 

[BoeingBoy]

the $154/hr is based on a rate increase of 18% b/c of bla, bla, bla, bla, and other stuff that i did not understand.

That pay rate just doesn't hold water even if Kasher is confused by percentages (an 18% reduction needs a 22% increase to get back to the original amount, not an 18% increase). It's not an 18% increase over LOA 93 even including one or two 3% annual increases since 12/31/2009. LOA 93 + 18% would be about $147-148.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

latest buzz on LOA 93:

This from a very reliable insider, sworn to secrecy of course (but how come these sources always break secrecy???0) said that the arbitrator has called the Company and the Union, and showed them the preliminary decision favoring the Union. A/B C/O's would go to around $154/hr, plus backpay, plus 401k deposits, etc ... the $154/hr is based on a rate increase of 18% b/c of bla, bla, bla, bla, and other stuff that i did not understand.

the Company supposedly said that it needed more time to absorb the news, as to which the mighty referee allegedly replied "you've had plenty of time to expect this, so deal w/ it already!!! ".


official news supposed to come out at the end of this month.

Please understand that this information did NOT come from Ch#p M#n#, so it might actually have the possibility of being somewhat true!

Is this from the same source that said Nicolau was going to use LOS?
That makes the 330 about $195. If that is the case where do you think the next 330 flying is going to go? To the guys getting $190 or the guys getting $160?

"so deal with it already" Would that be like the unconfirmed statement "if you owe them you will pay them"? Pretty tough talk for an arbitrator looking for more work down the road.

 

[Phoenix]

latest buzz on LOA 93:

This from a very reliable insider, sworn to secrecy of course (but how come these sources always break secrecy???0) said that the arbitrator has called the Company and the Union, and showed them the preliminary decision favoring the Union. A/B C/O's would go to around $154/hr, plus backpay, plus 401k deposits, etc ... the $154/hr is based on a rate increase of 18% b/c of bla, bla, bla, bla, and other stuff that i did not understand.

the Company supposedly said that it needed more time to absorb the news, as to which the mighty referee allegedly replied "you've had plenty of time to expect this, so deal w/ it already!!! ".


official news supposed to come out at the end of this month.

Please understand that this information did NOT come from Ch#p M#n#, so it might actually have the possibility of being somewhat true!

I think the amount of money involved in this makes it a long shot for labor to come out on top, but rumors are always entertaining if nothing else. Since the source wasn't CM then it has better than a 10% chance. 😀

Last month's CN answer to the LOA93 question struck me as a bit edgy and defensive. Hmmm. :unsure:

 

[aquagreen73s]

This is an apt description of how we got here. I pulled this from Zerohedge and although the context is completely different - macroeconomic and social unrest in the nation state - the root causes and the effects sure sound similar.

How's This For Social Unrest?

In his seminal work The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, William Shirer recounts how the struggling Weimar Republic printed its way out of reparation debt from World War I. Out-of-control printing caused the German mark to fall from 75 per dollar in 1921, to more than 4 billion just 3-years later.

Talk about chaos. After a brief period of credit-fueled economic respite, the onset of the global depression in 1929 had people in the streets clamoring for change. Hitler's National Socialism promised the world... and under such economic distress, people believed him.
(DOH anyone?)

There are two important lessons here. First is that hyperinflation comes very quickly. Confidence languishes for months, even years... until one day the currency begins to slide, slowly at first, then exponentially.

The second is what followed. Economic disaster begets social unrest, the two are inextricably linked. Populist rebellions and roving gangs became a constant presence in the republic. (Pink paties awards, frivolous RICO suits, ostracism on account of even talking to West BPR reps...sound familiar?)

It's at this point, when people are really hurting, they're the most impressionable. They're looking for somebody, anybody, to lead them out of the turmoil. What they got was a charismatic leader with a grand plan. (Enter Seham, Bradford and Cleary!)

Here in Cambodia, a similar story unfolded in the 1970s.

Years of constant American B-52 bombing campaigns during the Vietnam War took its toll on the country. Over 500,000 tons of bombs were dropped on Cambodia during the war. By the time the last US forces withdrew from Vietnam in 1975, nearly three-quarters of Cambodia's agrarian economy was destroyed.

Malnourishment and starvation were rampant, and Cambodians were ready to follow anyone with a plan.

Pol Pot's agrarian socialism struck a chord. After years of civil war, Cambodia's economic ruin opened the door for his communist forces to take over the country.

Just like Germany in 1930, economic hardship swayed just enough people to allow a criminal madman's rise to power. Neither case required a popular majority, but merely a critical mass of vocal activists. The rest of the country either fell in line or was exterminated. (Emperor Cleary anyone?)

Under both regimes, people never got what they expected. Pol Pot waged mass genocide on his own people, murdering as much as a third of Cambodia's population. Teachers, doctors, students, artists... anyone who could possibly pose a threat was neutralized.

I've had the opportunity to learn first hand about many of these cases during my times here. And not far from Phnom Penh, the infamous killing fields are still littered with human remains.

History is full of examples of governments taking draconian action in times of economic-fueled social turmoil. Faced with terrible circumstances, people cry out for their governments to 'do something'. Politicians happily oblige.

It's concerning right now to see the early stages of economic decline spawning populist uprisings; most are being met with unconscionable force by the police state.(Loss of pensions, severe wage cuts, promises made that are invariably broken, LOA93)

Mark Twain used to say that while history may not repeat itself, it certainly rhymes. I'd encourage you to think clearly about what's really happening in the world, and not simply write off such events as temporary aberrations.

Let me be even more clear: it's not crazy to have a plan. You're not a lunatic for considering your international options. In a world fraught with so much uncertainty, it's the only sane choice.

 

[Move2CLT]

latest buzz on LOA 93:

This from a very reliable insider, sworn to secrecy of course (but how come these sources always break secrecy???0) said that the arbitrator has called the Company and the Union, and showed them the preliminary decision favoring the Union. A/B C/O's would go to around $154/hr, plus backpay, plus 401k deposits, etc ... the $154/hr is based on a rate increase of 18% b/c of bla, bla, bla, bla, and other stuff that i did not understand.

the Company supposedly said that it needed more time to absorb the news, as to which the mighty referee allegedly replied "you've had plenty of time to expect this, so deal w/ it already!!! ".


official news supposed to come out at the end of this month.

Please understand that this information did NOT come from Ch#p M#n#, so it might actually have the possibility of being somewhat true!

Completely false. But if it makes you feel good...

 

[aquagreen73s]

Completely false. But if it makes you feel good...

Actually it's correct right up to the point where Kubota says the decision favors the union. The event occurred on Sept 16th. Any day now reality comes crashing down on luvthe9, Hate2fly and BS. Grab a brew, sit back and enjoy!

 

[Phoenix]

Actually it's correct right up to the point where Kubota says the decision favors the union. The event occurred on Sept 16th. Any day now reality comes crashing down on luvthe9, Hate2fly and BS. Grab a brew, sit back and enjoy!

If it happened on September 16, and favors the company, you need to inform Kirby so he can calm down when questioned about it.

 

[Move2CLT]

They comprehend just fine. Seham is fired. He is also not being paid, following trumped up accusations of theft by Rocky and Bullwinkle.

I am sure he or his rep will be there December 1st. Since you seem to have a handle on all things USAPA, what do you think he will be saying to Judge Silver?

RR

Man it's funny watching how you quickly easties turn on each other.

And what's also funny is how you easties don't even recognize the ambiguity coming out of USAPA. Is Seham fired? Not fired? Is he going to PHX? Not going to PHX? Some union you have there.

Allow me to shed some light. An east USAPAian passed along to me that the reason Seham is being pushed out is because he told Cleary (Tracey was present as well via phone) that the battle for DOH was a dead end. USAPA has pretty much exhausted its options and was now pinned into a corner with no room to maneuver. The filing in NY was a straw that Seham wasn't willing to grasp so Cleary went looking elsewhere.

Logic states you don't pull your attorney in the end game and replace him with more expensive lawyers unless there's a great reason. Bringing the new firm up to speed is going to cost quite a bit of money on top of their hourly rates. And to prep for Silver's court Is no easy task as she laid down specific rules for the December hearing.

In Cleary's eyes, Seham lost the focus and is now being audited. And this is an attorney who laid the legal foundation for USAPAs battle. Hes now an afterthought and that speaks volumes about the hopelessness of DOH and avoiding the Nic.

Legally, you won't get away from the arbitrated list but you may do it with delay. But with delay comes LOA93.

 

[nic4us]

Man it's funny watching how you quickly easties turn on each other.

And what's also funny is how you easties don't even recognize the ambiguity coming out of USAPA. Is Seham fired? Not fired? Is he going to PHX? Not going to PHX? Some union you have there.

Allow me to shed some light. An east USAPAian passed along to me that the reason Seham is being pushed out is because he told Cleary (Tracey was present as well via phone) that the battle for DOH was a dead end. USAPA has pretty much exhausted its options and was now pinned into a corner with no room to maneuver. The filing in NY was a straw that Seham wasn't willing to grasp so Cleary went looking elsewhere.

Logic states you don't pull your attorney in the end game and replace him with more expensive lawyers unless there's a great reason. Bringing the new firm up to speed is going to cost quite a bit of money on top of their hourly rates. And to prep for Silver's court Is no easy task as she laid down specific rules for the December hearing.

In Cleary's eyes, Seham lost the focus and is now being audited. And this is an attorney who laid the legal foundation for USAPAs battle. Hes now an afterthought and that speaks volumes about the hopelessness of DOH and avoiding the Nic.

Legally, you won't get away from the arbitrated list but you may do it with delay. But with delay comes LOA93.

If you have any shred of evidence, that can be used outside a lawyer client relationship, that Seeham has informed usapa that their persuit of DOH is no longer obtainable and that their only course is attempted delay, DFRII is ripe right now.

 

[nic4us]

I think you need to talk to the IBT about their stance in regards to unionism. You will find that they also deal with a DOH agenda and they understand it far better than you do.

Sorry but your Nic will stay buried, regardless of what you think.

V

I am sure the IBT favors a DOH methodology. That is why they would have no problem either using the Nic, or giving you malcontents your 2005 DOH.

I am also quite certain the IBT has a respect for binding arbitrations, and a familiarity with the same, that greatly surpasses my understanding. So, I would expect they would not want to trash the system that settles disputes for organized labor, just so the scum at usapa can steal their co-workers seniority.

You are right about the Nic, it will stay buried in the contractual obligations of LCC and any union that represents the pilots in the employment of LCC, regardless of what I think.

 

[Move2CLT]

If you have any shred of evidence, that can be used outside a lawyer client relationship, that Seeham has informed usapa that their persuit of DOH is no longer obtainable and that their only course is attempted delay, DFRII is ripe right now.

It would tossed based on here say. The source is and has been good and I believe the conversation took place as told to me.

I wish it was that easy.

 

[aquagreen73s]

If you have any shred of evidence, that can be used outside a lawyer client relationship, that Seeham has informed usapa that their persuit of DOH is no longer obtainable and that their only course is attempted delay, DFRII is ripe right now.

It'll come out when USAPA eats DOH and then tries to blame Seham in a malpractice suit. Seham will ague that he told uSAPa going in what the risks were and he did it verbally and in writing.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Just got off the phone with M&H uniforms and they said the East doesn't get jackets? Really? You guys have to buy your own jackets ($140)? Wow. Starting January the America West guys and gals will be getting their second issuance of jackets. That's a quarter of a million dollars for the West, compliments of the company. Actually, it's compliments of a CBA that is worth something.

Do you guys understand why Leonidas has been funded? All these small things add up, like jackets, health insurance, extra vacation, scheduling flexibility, PBS, etc. All of that adds up to make funding the defense of the Nicolau easy.

 

[Code Name V]

Just got off the phone with M&H uniforms and they said the East doesn't get jackets? Really? You guys have to buy your own jackets ($140)? Wow. Starting January the America West guys and gals will be getting their second issuance of jackets. That's a quarter of a million dollars for the West, compliments of the company. Actually, it's compliments of a CBA that is worth something.

Do you guys understand why Leonidas has been funded? All these small things add up, like jackets, health insurance, extra vacation, scheduling flexibility, PBS, etc. All of that adds up to make funding the defense of the Nicolau easy.

Are you really that naive to believe that this would get under our skin? Get real! As before, you may like to compare your contract to ours but it is no different than AMR or DL/NW etc. to compare their contracts. You are a separate entity. Get used to it....

V