US Pilots Labor Discussion

[luvn737s]

I understand.....and actually, I am looking forward to a changing of the guard at USAPA....can't happen soon enough IMO.

breeze

Nope breezer, the guard won't be changing, the whole union will be changing into something that in no way resembles the current abomination that passes itself off as a union.

Or folks will continue to wait and see who decides to fill the vacuum that USAPA will leave, and then gnash their teeth while sitting on their butts.

I will give Johnny Mac credit for being the only leader to try and get into the east crew rooms and open a dialog. He was escorted out because of what the company perceived as union activity in the crewroom, but that should not have been the end of it. The AOL mailings were an attempt (although woefully inadequate) to reach those who have been steeped in the propaganda of Tokyo Mike.

If AOL really wanted to do something productive, they would move their meet and greet and party to a hotel in Charlotte and/or Philly and let some of those who are looking for a viable group to support put faces to the names and hear the truth and get their questions answered.

You expect a gutless tyrant like Cleary to hide from his opposition, but those who would throw their support towards proven leaders can and do expect better.

 

[crazystnic]

Nope breezer, the guard won't be changing, the whole union will be changing into something that in no way resembles the current abomination that passes itself off as a union.

Or folks will continue to wait and see who decides to fill the vacuum that USAPA will leave, and then gnash their teeth while sitting on their butts.

I will give Johnny Mac credit for being the only leader to try and get into the east crew rooms and open a dialog. He was escorted out because of what the company perceived as union activity in the crewroom, but that should not have been the end of it. The AOL mailings were an attempt (although woefully inadequate) to reach those who have been steeped in the propaganda of Tokyo Mike.

If AOL really wanted to do something productive, they would move their meet and greet and party to a hotel in Charlotte and/or Philly and let some of those who are looking for a viable group to support put faces to the names and hear the truth and get their questions answered.

You expect a gutless tyrant like Cleary to hide from his opposition, but those who would throw their support towards proven leaders can and do expect better.

 

[crazystnic]

There will never be a metting of the minds or a new union or new leadership with like minds until both sides drop the extreme positions.
NIC and DOH...

but I dont' see either coming about... I wish you would stop your hypothesis on how this will all end

I think you nor I have any idea.

 

[Phoenix]

Just a quick update on the status of LOA 93 for those who are wondering.....

As of a couple of days ago and contrary to rumors there is still no decision from the arbitrator. The delay was caused by the fact that our arbitrator is also the chief arbitrator for the NFL and he was totally consumed this summer by the NFL strike and related issues. He has confirmed that he is now working on the LOA 93 decision.

The company is trying to prevail on a legal concept in contract law known as "mutual mistake". The company is claiming both sides negotiated and agreed that there would be no expiration to the pay freeze. USAPA is claiming the pay freeze expiration was discussed extensively during negotiations and that both the company and ALPA agreed to a pay freeze expiration date. USAPA's proof is that the contract clearly contains the exact date the pay freeze was to expire and the document was signed by both the company and ALPA. The arbitrator is bound to follow the law and enforce the current and correct contract rates which are easily determined by applying the effective pay modifications to the pay rates contained in the underlying pilot contract. The company is now incorrectly applying the current and the expired pay modifications to the contract pay rates which is an illegal violation of the status quo provisions of the Railway Labor Act.

Awaiting the decision both sides are certain they are going to win and are both chilling the Champagne.....

underpants

One more reason why I hate football.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

The 2 year number was quoted by a west guy. If your question is about the large group of guys that were hired from 88 to 2000. It is a whole lot longer than 2 years.

If NIC is implemented, there is a whole pack of senior f/o's that are in their mid 50's that will never see the left seat, under LOA 93 they will at least get a few years. Under NIC the average guy that was hired from 88 to 2000 will have hundreds of guys younger than them senior to them.

For the 88 to 2000 guys that were furloughed when the merger took place, they are all below the most junior west guy.

retires west east
2012 2 8
2013 40 144
2014 42 201
2015 48 179
2016 42 227
2017 58 237
2018 50 258
2019 74 255
2020 66 240

9 year total 422 west 1749 east

So Under LOA 93 seperate ops by 2020 at least 1200 Capt. seats open up to f/o's even assuming that 500 of the 1749 retires are f/o's that only leaves 651 east pilots that are here now as f/o's. Less than the number that is stapled to the bottom of NIC that were furloughed. Add in medicals and early out guys and the number is less.

Under NIC take away the 422 west retires, assume they are all captains (as the west likes to point out) and that leaves 1378 west pilots, of which most of those 1200 east capt seats would go to per NIC.

1000 hours a year , so $15 hour f/o difference under nic is $15000 year pre tax.

LOA 93 Capt seat means $40000 year difference for them.

That means that under NIC an east F/o would have to work 2.6 years to make what they would as a LOA 93 capt.

Under LOA 93 every east pilot is a Captain in less than 12 years current fleet, new hires included.

Under NIC at 12 years the east would still have 88 to 2000 hires stuck in right seat.

east only has 3600 now including newbies, figure half is left seat and thats 1800, roughly the same amount east guys gone in 9 years.

NOW the telling part, west only has 422 retirements and roughly 900 capt seats. Unless they can shove NIC down the easts neck they will still have 478 current f/o's still in the right seat. Current fleet.


That is why you see the east guys not complaining much about LOA 93, and the west guys screaming that it is NIC or nothing.

Notice how when they(WEST) post that BS CLEAR never mentions 25% EAST flying, now IF THIS THING WERE MERGERED, how long before these BOZO"S shut PHX and move EAST? And did I mention the 1.14bil dollar loan repayment due CITI in 2 years, do you really think with the EU that loan absent a merger will get renegotiated! feel free to spell check or use grammar check!

 

[Black Swan]

What incentive do we have to move off the Nic? I only see you guys begging for change, not us.

And since you don't mind being on LOA93, we don't mind keeping you there.

This is going to be very interesting. Luvn knows what you don't have a clue as to what is coming. You have a nice big truck coming down the road, right at you and the funny part is, you don't have a clue as to what is going to hit you! Enjoy your Kasher nightmare!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Nope breezer, the guard won't be changing, the whole union will be changing into something that in no way resembles the current abomination that passes itself off as a union.

Or folks will continue to wait and see who decides to fill the vacuum that USAPA will leave, and then gnash their teeth while sitting on their butts.

I will give Johnny Mac credit for being the only leader to try and get into the east crew rooms and open a dialog. He was escorted out because of what the company perceived as union activity in the crewroom, but that should not have been the end of it. The AOL mailings were an attempt (although woefully inadequate) to reach those who have been steeped in the propaganda of Tokyo Mike.

If AOL really wanted to do something productive, they would move their meet and greet and party to a hotel in Charlotte and/or Philly and let some of those who are looking for a viable group to support put faces to the names and hear the truth and get their questions answered.

You expect a gutless tyrant like Cleary to hide from his opposition, but those who would throw their support towards proven leaders can and do expect better.

REALLY, I don't see him as where's WALDO!, The AOL stole identities, there credibility is shot, and yes west=AOL, so there you have it!, Alot of us on the EAST have witnessed the changeing of the guard at ole BUCKINGHAM PALACE many times, but the palace never changes, the NIC will never fly, just like the palace! GOOD LUCK!

 

[nevergiveup]

And I rest mine. You're clueless about career expectations and SLI.

And I don't feel bad. You're on LOA93, not me.

Ah....youth!

 

[Black Swan]

Another week gone by and no Kasher decision.

Is he writing the Magna Carta?

No, he is writing you a check. Not that YOU deserve one.

 

[luvn737s]

Luvn knows what you don't have a clue as to what is coming.

No, you're wrong there. Luvn knows that the west has the opportunity to partner with the east who want to move forward (but see no viable alternative to USAPA) and kick the loudmouth minority in the teeth and prove that results trump rhetoric.

 

[traderjake]

"there" credibility is shot

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

their, many thanks, DAN, GEAR UP!

 

[Piedmont1984]

Instead of firing Seham, the union should have fired Kasher, a year ago, for taking too long.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

No, you're wrong there. Luvn knows that the west has the opportunity to partner with the east who want to move forward (but see no viable alternative to USAPA) and kick the loudmouth minority in the teeth and prove that results trump rhetoric.

Well then what is your viable alternative? The loudmouth minority? LOOK IN MIRROR THEN REFLECT ON YOUR LAST STATEMENT! A Simple CARD DRIVE, BS ON YOUR PART IS ALL THAT IS NEEDED! BS WALKS, ACTION TALKS, SHOW US THE CARDS OR WELL, EVEN WITH AN LOA93 LOSS YOUR SO FULL OF IT! LOUDMOUTH MINORITY?

 

[traderjake]

DAN, GEAR UP!

Maybe next month, I'm still on leave of absence.