US Pilots Labor Discussion

[SparrowHawk]

Perhaps I am naive, but, I have heard that an arbitrator is not supposed to consider "financial viability" when making their decision.

You've heard correctly, however that doesn't mean a whole lot because you can't prove what's in someone's head (Kasher) and you won't see it in the written decision either. So you walk away never knowing.

After all, the tempe management group hangs their hat on their communicative skills. If they cannot convince an employee group that the company will go under should an adverse ruling prevail, then, maybe that management group should be fired.

The Tempe brain trust such as it is couldn't convince some on the East that the sky is blue much less anything else. The folks on the East are DONE as in stick a fork in them. Going back to early 90's one CEO after another came and went. They've heard it all before. Been lied to downsized, wage cut/freezed to the point where they believe NOTHING from Senior Management. I think at this point every single represented work group would strike and cause the liquidation of US Airways in a heartbeat. Deep down I think Senior Management knows this and is dragging negotiations out as long as possible.

 

[Keroseneuser]

What are you not understanding? This is a chart designed and built by the east. That was the top and bottom the the entire chart. I did not "take a pair or scissors" to anything. That is all the information there is. Those are the east numbers. 2 years is the max harm to any east pilot.

I don't know how to be anymore clear.

I a 2 year delay for SOME of the east FO's is worth hundreds of millions of dollars to you guys so be it. But understand what the real harm is and how much you all are doing to yourself.

Ok to make it plain. There are 716 pre merger pilots on the seniority list BELOW Zeigler. 824 when you count the 108 hired since the merger.

Yep they were furloughed when the list you tossed out there was made. Any contract that contained NIC would have to be voted in by the membership, Including the 824 that you want to leave out in your "max harm to east" list. That is 824 No votes from the get go. And they are harmed by NIC far more than 2 years.

Also depending on what the date was that your chart was figured out, those may be pre age 65 numbers you are using, in which case the top of your list is running way ahead of the projections.

The Top of your list Knoll (not koll) Is currently sitting 83 numbers from a Airbus Capt seat. He will be left seat before the 2014 date that ALPA listed at the rate we are losing guys to early out and medical, much less the 2016 NIC date. Which way do you think he and all the senior F/O's around him are going to vote in any T/A? It wont be for something with NIC in it. Stein is 84 away from bus left seat etc.

 

[Move2CLT]

Ah....youth!

Ah...senility.

 

[luvthe9]

You MUST be joking! George Nicolau is very highly regarded too. Watch how fast Kasher goes from being respected to "senile" when he hands USCAB their own asses.

I just can't wait till he does!!!!!!

 

[Hate2fly]

Ok to make it plain. There are 716 pre merger pilots on the seniority list BELOW Zeigler. 824 when you count the 108 hired since the merger.

Yep they were furloughed when the list you tossed out there was made. Any contract that contained NIC would have to be voted in by the membership, Including the 824 that you want to leave out in your "max harm to east" list. That is 824 No votes from the get go. And they are harmed by NIC far more than 2 years.

Also depending on what the date was that your chart was figured out, those may be pre age 65 numbers you are using, in which case the top of your list is running way ahead of the projections.

The Top of your list Knoll (not koll) Is currently sitting 83 numbers from a Airbus Capt seat. He will be left seat before the 2014 date that ALPA listed at the rate we are losing guys to early out and medical, much less the 2016 NIC date. Which way do you think he and all the senior F/O's around him are going to vote in any T/A? It wont be for something with NIC in it. Stein is 84 away from bus left seat etc.

Kero,

The west doesn't understand the way this works. East pilots will never vote for the nic. Most of our narrow body captains will never get to the wide body captain position under the nic. Even if they do get to it they will always be junior. Working weekends and holidays on reserve. No thank you!

Hate

 

[Res Judicata]

Kero,

The west doesn't understand the way this works. East pilots will never vote for the nic. Most of our narrow body captains will never get to the wide body captain position under the nic. Even if they do get to it they will always be junior. Working weekends and holidays on reserve. No thank you!

Hate

First contract vote passes. It will include the nic. Care to wager?

 

[Keroseneuser]

First contract vote passes. It will include the nic. Care to wager?

Well we have already established that anything with NIC harms every east F/O by at least 2 years at top of the list, and probably 5 or 6 years to the bottom of the f/o list or more.
<scratches probably no votes for all f/o's>

Of the 516 top of list east guys that the west is counting on for another sell them down the river vote, well gee that was 516 in 2005, and they were mostly the widebody capts and up to that point you could probably only hold widebody cap the last five years...so lessee, 2005 till now...age 65 didnt come in to play until late 07. Guessing probably somewhere in neighborhood of half of those are not here anymore maybe more.

<sctraches out 250 potential yes votes>

And the Bus captains that would all end up junior to west guys in the NIC list thus never getting a chance at the 767 or 330's.

<lists most of the Captains as No vote>

And considering I have yet to meet anybody that even remotly mentions ever accepting NIC.

Sounds like a good bet to me! 🙂

Don't get me wrong, Parker CAN toss enough money at the pilots to get a yes vote, but we all know he WONT do that unless some merger depends on him getting everybody on one list at all costs.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

The Tempe brain trust such as it is couldn't convince some on the East that the sky is blue much less anything else. The folks on the East are DONE as in stick a fork in them. Going back to early 90's one CEO after another came and went. They've heard it all before. Been lied to downsized, wage cut/freezed to the point where they believe NOTHING from Senior Management. I think at this point every single represented work group would strike and cause the liquidation of US Airways in a heartbeat. Deep down I think Senior Management knows this and is dragging negotiations out as long as possible.

On the east, it seems that "fear and intimidation" as a management technique is done, the technique is really only being effective on first timers, something business schools seem to have a real problem teaching.

I hear other employee groups other than the pilots who are willing to just pack it up and walk, just like all groups did at Eastern. I was not there but as a paying passenger the progression was pretty obvious to me.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Ah...senility.

They say, personal experience makes it credible. Been checked lately? Not that you would know but your parents should.

 

[Hate2fly]

The Tempe brain trust such as it is couldn't convince some on the East that the sky is blue much less anything else. The folks on the East are DONE as in stick a fork in them. Going back to early 90's one CEO after another came and went. They've heard it all before. Been lied to downsized, wage cut/freezed to the point where they believe NOTHING from Senior Management. I think at this point every single represented work group would strike and cause the liquidation of US Airways in a heartbeat. Deep down I think Senior Management knows this and is dragging negotiations out as long as possible.
[/quote]

Sparrow,

Right on the money! East cockpit conversation very seldom ever mentions the west pilots. I haven't flown with anyone in the last 5 years that ever says anything good about Team Tempe. Most east pilots are just riding this thing into the sunset. If we win the LOA93 pay restoration this board will light up like a christmas tree for a few days. After that the west will have to figure out what they want to do. We will get our 3% pay raises every May 1st until there is a new contract. The attrition in the east will be wild. Every east pilot knows this and that is why we would never give up our attrition. Most east pilots are well aware of this management teams limitations in the business world. AWA was always a dirt bag operation. The pay and benefits have always been bottom of the barrel. Team Tempe will never agree to a contract that pays industry average wages. Never!

Hate

 

[Hate2fly]

The Tempe brain trust such as it is couldn't convince some on the East that the sky is blue much less anything else. The folks on the East are DONE as in stick a fork in them. Going back to early 90's one CEO after another came and went. They've heard it all before. Been lied to downsized, wage cut/freezed to the point where they believe NOTHING from Senior Management. I think at this point every single represented work group would strike and cause the liquidation of US Airways in a heartbeat. Deep down I think Senior Management knows this and is dragging negotiations out as long as possible.
[/quote]

Sparrow,

Right on the money! East cockpit conversation very seldom ever mentions the west pilots. I haven't flown with anyone in the last 5 years that ever says anything good about Team Tempe. Most east pilots are just riding this thing into the sunset. If we win the LOA93 pay restoration this board will light up like a christmas tree for a few days. After that the west will have to figure out what they want to do. We will get our 3% pay raises every May 1st until there is a new contract. The attrition in the east will be wild. Every east pilot knows this and that is why we would never give up our attrition. Most east pilots are well aware of this management teams limitations in the business world. AWA was always a dirt bag operation. The pay and benefits have always been bottom of the barrel. Team Tempe will never agree to a contract that pays industry average wages. Never!

Hate

 

[mrbreeze]

Sparrow,

Right on the money! East cockpit conversation very seldom ever mentions the west pilots. I haven't flown with anyone in the last 5 years that ever says anything good about Team Tempe. Most east pilots are just riding this thing into the sunset. If we win the LOA93 pay restoration this board will light up like a christmas tree for a few days. After that the west will have to figure out what they want to do. We will get our 3% pay raises every May 1st until there is a new contract. The attrition in the east will be wild. Every east pilot knows this and that is why we would never give up our attrition. Most east pilots are well aware of this management teams limitations in the business world. AWA was always a dirt bag operation. The pay and benefits have always been bottom of the barrel. Team Tempe will never agree to a contract that pays industry average wages. Never!

Hate

You are right on the money.....

Also, consider this: Team Tempe keeps the ops separate for the next, SHORT 5 yrs, even having to pay the LOA93 loss.....what happens after most of the East pilots retire?

If Parker has his way, he will pay LOA93 wages for 5 yrs, then it's back to the old sweat shop wages for whoever is left on the property......West group and new hires. He still gets what he wants, but in the long run, has no incentive to ever merge the ops. The only thing that gets him excited is the chance of a merger, which is the dark horse in this race.

The West pilots have a huge disadvantage here and I think their best option is to find a way to a SLI with the East, such as luvn737 suggests.

It's a chess match, and the West pilots, at this point, are just watching from the sidelines.

breeze

 

[cleardirect]

Ok to make it plain. There are 716 pre merger pilots on the seniority list BELOW Zeigler. 824 when you count the 108 hired since the merger.

Yep they were furloughed when the list you tossed out there was made. Any contract that contained NIC would have to be voted in by the membership, Including the 824 that you want to leave out in your "max harm to east" list. That is 824 No votes from the get go. And they are harmed by NIC far more than 2 years.

Also depending on what the date was that your chart was figured out, those may be pre age 65 numbers you are using, in which case the top of your list is running way ahead of the projections.

The Top of your list Knoll (not koll) Is currently sitting 83 numbers from a Airbus Capt seat. He will be left seat before the 2014 date that ALPA listed at the rate we are losing guys to early out and medical, much less the 2016 NIC date. Which way do you think he and all the senior F/O's around him are going to vote in any T/A? It wont be for something with NIC in it. Stein is 84 away from bus left seat etc.

Think about it. This was a presentation to the ALPA exec board. You east pilots were trying to make a big point to the board. So don't you think they would have found the most harm they could among the list? Take your time.

Your leadership used that specific part of the list for a reason. If there were F/O's that would be delayed by 5-6 years why would they not use those numbers?????????

You have no proof of the 5-6 year delay. Take your time and think it through. I'll wait.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

AWA was always a dirt bag operation.

Nothing seems to have changed.

There is a way to change, but it requires more energy than most in the east seem to be willing to expend (the west are too inexperienced to know better). Too bad. Many have seen the assets and resources laying about, unused while the low hanging fruit is harvested (no seed corn) to the degradation of any future product.

The stakeholders are lazy, willing to harvest the freebies whilst the principle degrades. Shameful on so many levels.

I believe the employees have a way to change this. It will cost them less than if they did nothing yet they are too lazy to stir.

Mr. DUI king counts on this. Would it not be time to shake the drunk out of his easy chair?

 

[cleardirect]

Kero,

The west doesn't understand the way this works. East pilots will never vote for the nic. Most of our narrow body captains will never get to the wide body captain position under the nic. Even if they do get to it they will always be junior. Working weekends and holidays on reserve. No thank you!

Hate

Without the merger NONE of you would be wide body captains.

With the merger even separate ops a majority of you were NEVER going to be a wide body captain. Learn to count you just don't have that many WB. Get over yourself.