US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

..
Your leadership ...

You mean the ones we tossed out into the street? Are you referring to them to help your argument? Ha!

 

[cleardirect]

The 2 year number was quoted by a west guy. If your question is about the large group of guys that were hired from 88 to 2000. It is a whole lot longer than 2 years.

If NIC is implemented, there is a whole pack of senior f/o's that are in their mid 50's that will never see the left seat, under LOA 93 they will at least get a few years. Under NIC the average guy that was hired from 88 to 2000 will have hundreds of guys younger than them senior to them.

For the 88 to 2000 guys that were furloughed when the merger took place, they are all below the most junior west guy.

retires west east
2012 2 8
2013 40 144
2014 42 201
2015 48 179
2016 42 227
2017 58 237
2018 50 258
2019 74 255
2020 66 240

9 year total 422 west 1749 east

So Under LOA 93 seperate ops by 2020 at least 1200 Capt. seats open up to f/o's even assuming that 500 of the 1749 retires are f/o's that only leaves 651 east pilots that are here now as f/o's. Less than the number that is stapled to the bottom of NIC that were furloughed. Add in medicals and early out guys and the number is less.

Under NIC take away the 422 west retires, assume they are all captains (as the west likes to point out) and that leaves 1378 west pilots, of which most of those 1200 east capt seats would go to per NIC.

1000 hours a year , so $15 hour f/o difference under nic is $15000 year pre tax.

LOA 93 Capt seat means $40000 year difference for them.

That means that under NIC an east F/o would have to work 2.6 years to make what they would as a LOA 93 capt.

Under LOA 93 every east pilot is a Captain in less than 12 years current fleet, new hires included.

Under NIC at 12 years the east would still have 88 to 2000 hires stuck in right seat.

east only has 3600 now including newbies, figure half is left seat and thats 1800, roughly the same amount east guys gone in 9 years.

NOW the telling part, west only has 422 retirements and roughly 900 capt seats. Unless they can shove NIC down the easts neck they will still have 478 current f/o's still in the right seat. Current fleet.


That is why you see the east guys not complaining much about LOA 93, and the west guys screaming that it is NIC or nothing.

Whatever.

Just did a little quick math.With a 2 year delay for upgrade and a new contract compared to LOA 93. Chrisos gives away about $340,000 not counting what you guys have already left on the table. But you guys stay on LOA93. I guess it is worth it.

 

[mrbreeze]

Without the merger NONE of you would be wide body captains.

With the merger even separate ops a majority of you were NEVER going to be a wide body captain. Learn to count you just don't have that many WB. Get over yourself.

Clear,

Obviously, a new contract with Parker is not guaranteed within the next 5 yrs, so that is a long shot.

With the stagnation at USAir over the last 20 yrs, I never had aspirations of flying the wide body left seat,. However, I do have the right to retire as a narrow body Capt without someone with another 20-30 of flying, cutting in line ahead of me, keeping that from happening.

You may get your widebody seat when you are my age, but if Parker has his way, it will be at the AWA sweatshop wages after we are all retired.

Best of luck,
breeze

 

[Keroseneuser]

Think about it. This was a presentation to the ALPA exec board. You east pilots were trying to make a big point to the board. So don't you think they would have found the most harm they could among the list? Take your time.

Your leadership used that specific part of the list for a reason. If there were F/O's that would be delayed by 5-6 years why would they not use those numbers?????????

You have no proof of the 5-6 year delay. Take your time and think it through. I'll wait.

Every one of those 716 pre merger and 108 post merger pilots below Zaigler would be stapled under every west pilot if NIC ever showed up in a contract. That means that not a single one of those east F/O's could upgrade until every single west pilot made captain.

Under NIC:

there are 1800 west pilots, retirements on the east will number about 1800 total and probably 1200 captain seats by 2020 and about 440 captain seats on the west. That is 1600 left seats in next nine years.

900 of those will go to the west guys assuming 50/50 split capt and F/o in the sen list. That leaves 740 seats for east guys. the 740 will cover the east guys down a bit past zeigler.(allowing for east f/o's retiring also) After that it will take another 3 or so years to get the rest of the pre merger east pilots in the left seat of the junior airplane.

Under LOA 93:

There are roughly 1200 captain seats opening up on the east by 2020. That means that...oop, look at that, Knoll is number 2412 (remember he is 80 away from cap now), and bottom of active list is number 3445 (2011 hire) thats 1113 east pilots that are covered by the 1200 retirements till 2020.

So stand alone on LOA 93 every east guy plus 100 newhires are captain by 2020. With access to wide bodys if they want. 2019 actually maybe earlier depending on medicals and early outs.

On NIC there will be east guys still waiting on the entire west list to file thru upgrade before they will get to the seat sometime next decade. And basically zero chance at anything other than the junior airplane.


I have no idea why ALPA put forth a list that only included pilots down to Zeigler and his projected 2 years. By doing so they left 716 pilots hanging out to dry. But then again they also approved flying to 95 hours up from 85 with those 716 on furlough, along with numerous other hose jobs like banning them from the alpa forums etc.. What they didn't count on was all 716 being back on the active list in time to vote alpa off the property.

So in short, the data you have that lists zaigler as the junior guy on the east was only correct until the recalls started. Zaigler still had 716 below him that never even got considered by the previous union in their "Harm projections"

 

[Keroseneuser]

Whatever.

Just did a little quick math.With a 2 year delay for upgrade and a new contract compared to LOA 93. Chrisos gives away about $340,000 not counting what you guys have already left on the table. But you guys stay on LOA93. I guess it is worth it.

You actually think parker and crowd is going to pay industry standard? Thats nuts, he never has and never will. Tells you that at every town hall meeting.

The east will not vote in NIC and then hope Parker gets drunk and signs a nifty industry standard contract before he realizes what he did.

Now if there is an industry standard contract signed and ready to go upon seniority integration you MIGHT be able to get the east to vote a NIC like list in. But since nobody trust tempe at all, I don't even know if you could then. Barring any signed sealed and delivered new contract and pay rates from tempe, the easts 1700+ retirements in the next 9 years is their best shot at a raise before they all hit 65.

 

[mrbreeze]

Mike had a friend, Bob, who was dyslexic, and while visiting him, he remembered, "Bob, Daylight Savings Time is ending tomorrow, so we need to turn our clocks back."

Mike goes to see Bob the next day, and finds him sitting in a chair with a can of black shoe polish, applying it to his penis.

" Bob, Bob, Bob," Mike says, "We're supposed to turn our clocks back!"

 

[mikey60]

Without the merger NONE of you would be wide body captains.

With the merger even separate ops a majority of you were NEVER going to be a wide body captain. Learn to count you just don't have that many WB. Get over yourself.

Yea and if a donkey had wings it could fly. There was a merger, PERIOD. Get over it, it happened, come back to present you sound like a broken record. Now get back into your bottle of Jack and give us a break.

 

[Reed Richards]

I have no idea why ALPA put forth a list that only included pilots down to Zeigler and his projected 2 years. By doing so they left 716 pilots hanging out to dry. But then again they also approved flying to 95 hours up from 85 with those 716 on furlough, along with numerous other hose jobs like banning them from the alpa forums etc.. What they didn't count on was all 716 being back on the active list in time to vote alpa off the property.

I always thought just "putting a guy with 17 years unbroken service behind a new hire" was good enough to keep my motivation going.

But you are my new "super" hero friend..well said.

ALPA, and especially the West MEC "didn't count" on a lot of things. History is repeating.

RR

 

[nic4us]

Yea and if a donkey had wings it could fly. There was a merger, PERIOD. Get over it, it happened, come back to present you sound like a broken record. Now get back into your bottle of Jack and give us a break.

Actually "if a donkey had wings" he would be named Claxon and challenge you to a dog fight.

 

[mrbreeze]

I have no idea why ALPA put forth a list that only included pilots down to Zeigler and his projected 2 years. By doing so they left 716 pilots hanging out to dry. But then again they also approved flying to 95 hours up from 85 with those 716 on furlough, along with numerous other hose jobs like banning them from the alpa forums etc.. What they didn't count on was all 716 being back on the active list in time to vote alpa off the property.

So in short, the data you have that lists zaigler as the junior guy on the east was only correct until the recalls started. Zaigler still had 716 below him that never even got considered by the previous union in their "Harm projections"

Just another straw that broke the camel's back as far as ALPA goes. Bye, bye, ALPA.

 

[Move2CLT]

Hey bright spark...or just #### to you.....every guy/gal who turns 60 over here or is over 60 already is getting an automatic 28K/48K
raise from the PBGC. So even though youliketo crow there are a ton of people over here easily topping your top pay.

Enjoy your next 20 years in the right seat out in the desert. Maybe someday you can be trader jakes FO.

NICDOA
NPJB

What about all those under 60 there bright spark? They don't get that raise, do they.

LMAO.

 

[Move2CLT]

Yea and if a donkey had wings it could fly. There was a merger, PERIOD. Get over it, it happened, come back to present you sound like a broken record. Now get back into your bottle of Jack and give us a break.

You need to pass that info along to your east buddies.

 

[traderjake]

I always thought just "putting a guy with 17 years unbroken service behind a new hire" was good enough to keep my motivation going.

Putting a Reserve F/O ahead of a Captain on the same airplane keeps the other side motivated.

 

[mrbreeze]

I always thought just "putting a guy with 17 years unbroken service behind a new hire" was good enough to keep my motivation going.
RR

Putting a Reserve F/O ahead of a Captain on the same airplane keeps the other side motivated.

IMHO, this is where NIC failed us all. Surely we can find something better.

breeze

 

[BoeingBoy]

Every one of those 716 pre merger and 108 post merger pilots below Zaigler would be stapled under every west pilot if NIC ever showed up in a contract.

I see why you're off. You've asked what happened to those 716 east pilots below Ziegler - they were furloughed at the time of the merger. Presumably the MEC just presented a chart of the top and bottom handful of active pilots at the time of the merger (PID) at the "March on Herndon" to show the effect of the Nic on the east pilots - a two year delay. Ziegler was the bottom active east pilot at the time of the merger. Of course, after the merger every furloughed east pilot that wanted to returned plus the CEL pilots who had gone to MDA plus new-hires (that's your 800+).

Jim