US Pilots Labor Discussion

[eastcoast]

Can you elaborate on what constitutes a "win" for either side and what you feel the winner will be able to do with their win? Is it cashing in the lottery ticket, or merely validating that it is a genuine lottery ticket?

I did not mean to imply that either side held a winning ticket. Only that a court will rule and someone will be forced to concede their position. The win will be when we can all move forward from this nightmare.

 

[Move2CLT]

In your nups did you say "honor and obey".

No, I'm not as old as you are and we don't say that anymore.

We say things like "respect" and "arbitration is final and binding".

Things you don't understand.

 

[nic4us]

I'd disagree with the bolded part, although it may be what you meant. Question 2 asks the court if accepting a non-Nic list is a violation of it's contractual responsibilities - i.e. can the company accept a non-Nic list and not be legally liable. The company doesn't ask the court anything about USAPA's DFR status if a non-Nic list is agreed to in negotiations.

Silver could rule that the company can accept any list it finds acceptable and not be legally liable (not likely in my opinion) but that would still leave USAPA on the hook for a potential DFR suit.

Jim

It would also leave any ratified CBA unimplementable if so ordered by injunction. Something else the company complained about in their DJ request.

 

[Phoenix]

...But negotiations are often a give and take. ...

Since you are junior to me you were starting to make a lot of sense and then you had to go and blow all your credibility by talking about something that hasn't been true at USAir in a decade or two.

In the old days mngmnt could promise the top 51% a part of the spoils if they would just go along for the ride, but now much of the top 51% now find themselves in the bottom 49% and have taken too many hits. Since the days of Rocky and Bullwinkle, many have been downgraded or backed into a reserve line. A simple "no" works a lot better now than it used to. A yes has proved to be a pay cut and downgrade in QOL every time.

If I were Doug, I wouldn't give a hoot if I had mainline flying two contracts. I would pretend I cared and all but why would I do anything to add to my costs when I have such a great excuse to delay?

 

[BoeingBoy]

It would also leave any ratified CBA unimplementable if so ordered by injunction. Something else the company complained about in their DJ request.

Absolutely - that's what I meant by any possible ruling not eliminating a potential DFR suit. The way I read the DJ request, the company is seeking immunity from legal liability - a hybrid DFR or even straight contract non-compliance - not immunity for USAPA, although if Silver rules that the company can only escape liability by accepting the Nic USAPA is pretty much stuck with that too (pending a certain appeal by USAPA).

Jim

 

[CallawayGolf]

I'd disagree with the bolded part, although it may be what you meant. Question 2 asks the court if accepting a non-Nic list is a violation of it's contractual responsibilities - i.e. can the company accept a non-Nic list and not be legally liable. The company doesn't ask the court anything about USAPA's DFR status if a non-Nic list is agreed to in negotiations.

Silver could rule that the company can accept any list it finds acceptable and not be legally liable (not likely in my opinion) but that would still leave USAPA on the hook for a potential DFR suit.

Jim

I'm not sure what you are seeing or not seeing as it may be. Here is the exact prayer for relief option 2:

a declaration that: (a) entry into a collective bargaining agreement between US Airways and USAPA which does not incorporate the Nicolau Award would not constitute a breach of USAPA’s duty of fair representation to the West Pilots in violation of the Railway Labor Act; and (B) USAPA would therefore not violate its duty under Section 2, First, of the Railway Labor Act “to exert every reasonable effort to make and maintain agreements concerning rates of pay, rules, and working conditions” if it continues to demand that US Airways agree to an integrated seniority list other than as reflected in the Nicolau Award, and therefore US Airways is not prohibited from accepting or implementing a non-Nicolau seniority list;

Seems to me the Company's request for relief under option 2 includes a court declaration that a non-Nicolau list would not be a DFR liability which they currently view as being a prohibited act if a DFR is likely or certain, which they do.

 

[N924PS]

If I were Doug, I wouldn't give a hoot if I had mainline flying two contracts. I would pretend I cared and all but why would I do anything to add to my costs when I have such a great excuse to delay?

In case you missed it, Parker figured this out on or before 18APR2008. Does this date ring a bell PHX?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'm not sure what you are seeing or not seeing as it may be. Here is the exact prayer for relief option 2:

Sorry, it was my memory that was faulty and not your post. Disregard everything I've said. I was thinking of the language in question 3.

Jim

 

[CallawayGolf]

Sorry, it was my memory that was faulty and not your post. Disregard everything I've said. I was thinking of the language in question 3.

Jim

Okay, I just wasn't clear on how I could be missing the clear language of the filing. Basically the four options are:
1. USAPAs non-Nic list is a clear violation of its DFR (a likely or probable ruling)
2. USAPAs non-Nic list is clearly not a violation of its DFR (not at all likely)
3. If the court can't rule on the DFR issue, then release US from any collusion liability (not very likely)
4. A court-imposed solution that resolves the seniority list questions without exposing US to future liability (doubtful)

At least that's how I see it

 

[luvn737s]

I did not mean to imply that either side held a winning ticket. Only that a court will rule and someone will be forced to concede their position. The win will be when we can all move forward from this nightmare.

I know the term "winning ticket" has a connotation beyond what I was looking for. But what do you think the direct ramifications of a court decision will have? It's a question which has consumed over 4 million dollars and I'd like to know what you (or anyone) thinks the next domino that will fall will be following a decision either way.

 

[Keroseneuser]

My short list:
- Vacation
- Deadhead
- Retirement contributions
- Insurance
- Reserve rules

320 captain should be in the $160 range based on recent trends.
330 & 767 should be in the mid $180 range.

320 f/o should be around $115 putting them within striking range of current captain rates.
330 & 767 f/o should be around $130.

These are not top of the industry rates but should keep us competitive. I think there was a time we could have gotten more. But based on current events I think these are realistic targets. I am also willing to give here and there. One area would be PBS. The right system could actually work well from those I've talked to who use it. Of course the down side is productivity, which is why its such a priority to the company. But negotiations are often a give and take. Saying you will never use PBS is like saying you will never fly a 2 person airplane. It's time to join the rest of the world in the 21st Century.

Using your numbers on just the active pilots:

Current East heavy Capt. = 280 F/O= 435
Current east grp 2 Capt=842 F/O= 858
Leaving the 81 capt and 81 f/o from 190 out of these numbers since you didnt specify 190 pay

West: Dont have exact cap to f/o numbers but they have about 1400 active so used 700 cap 700 f/o

You did not mention 767 numbers so put the 76 drivers in the 330 pile.


East total payrole increase for company just salary= 69.9 million per year.
west= 28.3 million

Total east and west would be a 98.2 million a year increase in payroll not including staffing increase for restored vacation, retirement increase and the rest you listed.

Profit so far thru 3rd quarter 2011= 68 million.

I don't think Tempe would ever have any intentions of giving the pilot group this kind of raise. They have never paid this much in their history. Basically the increases you listed are in the ballpark of what kasher is now working on, and Tempe has no intention of paying that just for the east if they can get out of it.

Since I asked originally what it would take for you to vote in a NIC contract and take the seniority hit I assume these are your min. numbers to vote in a NIC. I take that to mean that you have figured anything below that it is better to stay seperate ops if possible and take the attrition movement.

I do agree, if we saw a T/A from the company with the numbers you provided that a NIC vote would have some chance of passing on the east. I just don't think there is a chance that Tempe would ever come close to what you have listed. It is not that important to them. They like what they have right now and could care less if it ever gets combined. UNLESS they have to get it combined to get a merger done. But that is a complete unknown until a possible merger situation comes up.

Basically, I don't think tempe has any intention of paying enough money to get a YES vote on a NIC contract from the east. Judging from their negotiating over the last few years.

 

[Phoenix]

In case you missed it, Parker figured this out on or before 18APR2008. Does this date ring a bell PHX?

Are you kidding? Dougwiser was born that way! (Its not his fault.)

When Nic came along, it didn't change his mind one bit. He still has no intention of increasing his labor costs. The only realistic way to a pay raise is to fly more or upgrade (ie. reserve to line, bigger equipment, or right to left seat... lots of upgrading going on... and don't forget the PBGC money the old guys are getting when they turn 60). The sooner everyone accepts that the easier it will be to see where this is all heading.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Total east and west would be a 98.2 million a year increase in payroll not including staffing increase for restored vacation, retirement increase and the rest you listed.

Profit so far thru 3rd quarter 2011= 68 million.

I don't think Tempe would ever have any intentions of giving the pilot group this kind of raise.

As far as I know, the Kirby is still on the table - supposedly worth ~$120 million (personally I throw a fudge factor into the company's costing). I know that there are parts of the Kirby nobody on either side likes, but by your figures and the company's costing of Kirby there is $20 million to play with. The one unknown to me is your costing assumptions - payroll taxes, how much of a retirement contribution increase, etc that would drive up your cost estimate if not included.

Jim

 

[Keroseneuser]

As far as I know, the Kirby is still on the table - supposedly worth ~$120 million (personally I throw a fudge factor into the company's costing). I know that there are parts of the Kirby nobody on either side likes, but by your figures and the company's costing of Kirby there is $20 million to play with. The one unknown to me is your costing assumptions - payroll taxes, how much of a retirement contribution increase, etc that would drive up your cost estimate if not included.

Jim

Thats why I detailed that these numbers were strictly payroll (Hourly pay rates). The numbers and improvements Eastcoast put in his post would be much higher than the 98 mill. number I came up with. Just no way to really get a decent number on what vacation, retirement increase etc would cost with the info available without access to the books.

Pay rates alone are not too far off of what Kirby tossed out there (after 4 years, date of signing was MUCH lower), but we all know how well that went over when you added in all the other contract issues. Kirby at DOS was 146 on 319 increasing to 152 after 4 years if memory serves.

 

[eastcoast]

Thats why I detailed that these numbers were strictly payroll (Hourly pay rates). The numbers and improvements Eastcoast put in his post would be much higher than the 98 mill. number I came up with. Just no way to really get a decent number on what vacation, retirement increase etc would cost with the info available without access to the books.

Pay rates alone are not too far off of what Kirby tossed out there (after 4 years, date of signing was MUCH lower), but we all know how well that went over when you added in all the other contract issues. Kirby at DOS was 146 on 319 increasing to 152 after 4 years.

I came up with these ballparks #'s by looking at Jet Blue, Delta, and Spirit. My #'s do not exceed any of them. Plus there are areas I am willing to sacrifice. PBS has a large $ value when they cost the contract. There are some other work rules we could modify to reflect the reality of the 21st century.

Then there is the possible future merger scenario. And don't forget the value of the synergies they will finally get and the value of pilots pulling on the same end of the rope for a change. (ie: a motivated pilot will fly more efficiently, get fatigued less, etc.)