US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Using your numbers on just the active pilots:

Current East heavy Capt. = 280 F/O= 435
Current east grp 2 Capt=842 F/O= 858
Leaving the 81 capt and 81 f/o from 190 out of these numbers since you didnt specify 190 pay

West: Dont have exact cap to f/o numbers but they have about 1400 active so used 700 cap 700 f/o

You did not mention 767 numbers so put the 76 drivers in the 330 pile.


East total payrole increase for company just salary= 69.9 million per year.
west= 28.3 million

Total east and west would be a 98.2 million a year increase in payroll not including staffing increase for restored vacation, retirement increase and the rest you listed.

Profit so far thru 3rd quarter 2011= 68 million.

I don't think Tempe would ever have any intentions of giving the pilot group this kind of raise. They have never paid this much in their history. Basically the increases you listed are in the ballpark of what kasher is now working on, and Tempe has no intention of paying that just for the east if they can get out of it.

Since I asked originally what it would take for you to vote in a NIC contract and take the seniority hit I assume these are your min. numbers to vote in a NIC. I take that to mean that you have figured anything below that it is better to stay seperate ops if possible and take the attrition movement.

I do agree, if we saw a T/A from the company with the numbers you provided that a NIC vote would have some chance of passing on the east. I just don't think there is a chance that Tempe would ever come close to what you have listed. It is not that important to them. They like what they have right now and could care less if it ever gets combined. UNLESS they have to get it combined to get a merger done. But that is a complete unknown until a possible merger situation comes up.

Basically, I don't think tempe has any intention of paying enough money to get a YES vote on a NIC contract from the east. Judging from their negotiating over the last few years.

I think we have found the problem. I have heard you guys say that we should just accept DOH because the west will get a big pay raise. No we will not. Your numbers are so off it is crazy.

The Kirby proposal is worth according to the company $122 million. That is probably inflated but let's use those numbers. Parker has said the west was only going to get a 3% raise the rest goes east.

3% for the west captains is $4.35 per hour/ F/O's $2.70 per hour.
No other benefits or work rules. Our contract became amendable in 2006. Do you think a $4 an hour raise after the crap you guys have put us through and 5 years is anywhere close to acceptable?

Parker has stated that it will required $100 million to bring the east up to parity with the west. So the first $100 mil goes east. That leaves $22 million for raises for us to share. The west is 1/3 of the pilots group that means total package out of $122 million is $7.3 million for the west the east gets $114.7 million or 94% of the total money and benefits.

$7.3 million divided by 1400 pilots. $5200 total raise for the year. Take the increase in health benefits and taxes. Leaves less than $200 a month take home raise and worse work rules than we have now.

While you guys will see $40,000 benefit per year.

Separate ops for the future because what usapa is trying to shove up our ass is not good for the west. Explain where this big raise is coming from for the west.

Are you guys willing to accept DOH for a $200 per month increase? Why would we accept DOH for $200 a month? Why would we accept Nicolau for $200 per month.

Plus you want all of the attrition and DOH. Not just no but hell no.

 

[Keroseneuser]

I came up with these ballparks #'s by looking at Jet Blue, Delta, and Spirit. My #'s do not exceed any of them. Plus there are areas I am willing to sacrifice. PBS has a large $ value when they cost the contract. There are some other work rules we could modify to reflect the reality of the 21st century.

Then there is the possible future merger scenario. And don't forget the value of the synergies they will finally get and the value of pilots pulling on the same end of the rope for a change. (ie: a motivated pilot will fly more efficiently, get fatigued less, etc.)

Yeah there are a lot of variables to this. I am trying to look at it from a "can it be voted in" position.

Right now we have 280 heavy Captains, and most of these guys are gone in 5 years. Under anything with NIC, a large number of these seats will go to the west. So that might cut into the yes votes from the senior current f/o's since it could mean the difference between staying f/o or upgrading. Even with what I see as a best case scenario rate of 115 hour f/o. Thats still a $10 hour hit from current rates. Factor in the current 716 of the 858 total narrowbody f/o's that would be placed under every west pilot on the list and the possibility of getting a yes vote on anything NIC gets harder. Include that many of the 435 current heavy f/o's are over 60 and will be gone soon and the seats opening up from that adds to the question of can it be passed.

The numbers you posted are probably really somewhere in the range of 150 million or more of a cost increase the way the company would figure it with all retirement enhancements and insurance, deadhead etc. Personally I think the kirby proposal is all tempe is willing to cough up. As I said, Barring a merger, it just is not important to them if they have 2 seniority lists or one. 2 is cheaper for them so they have no incentive.

 

[Keroseneuser]

I think we have found the problem. I have heard you guys say that we should just accept DOH because the west will get a big pay raise. No we will not. Your numbers are so off it is crazy.

The Kirby proposal is worth according to the company $122 million. That is probably inflated but let's use those numbers. Parker has said the west was only going to get a 3% raise the rest goes east.

3% for the west captains is $4.35 per hour/ F/O's $2.70 per hour.
No other benefits or work rules. Our contract became amendable in 2006. Do you think a $4 an hour raise after the crap you guys have put us through and 5 years is anywhere close to acceptable?

Parker has stated that it will required $100 million to bring the east up to parity with the west. So the first $100 mil goes east. That leaves $22 million for raises for us to share. The west is 1/3 of the pilots group that means total package out of $122 million is $7.3 million for the west the east gets $114.7 million or 94% of the total money and benefits.

$7.3 million divided by 1400 pilots. $5200 total raise for the year. Take the increase in health benefits and taxes. Leaves less than $200 a month take home raise and worse work rules than we have now.

While you guys will see $40,000 benefit per year.

Separate ops for the future because what usapa is trying to shove up our ass is not good for the west. Explain where this big raise is coming from for the west.

Are you guys willing to accept DOH for a $200 per month increase? Why would we accept DOH for $200 a month? Why would we accept Nicolau for $200 per month.

Plus you want all of the attrition and DOH. Not just no but hell no.

You have DOH on the brain.

What Eastcoast and I are discussing is between staying seperate ops and NIC. And what it might take to get anything with NIC voted in. I don't think DOH has any chance of being put into place. The discussion he and I are having is what it would take from the company to have any real chance at getting anybody on the east to vote on ANYthing other than seperate ops. If we were discussing DOH Tempe could probably get the east to vote that in with nothing more than current west rates at this point.

really at this point, if tempe is going to keep the lowballing going in the contract negotations, the east is better off on the whole of staying seperate ops than they are even with DOH and the lawsuits that will bring. There is that much attrition coming up.

Eastcoast is one of the only easties I have talked to that has any interest whatsoever in NIC, and as we see here it is only if there is a large chunk of money involved. Most of what I hear on the line is not DOH anymore. Mostly now it is "Eh, stay seperate and let the retirements go a few years, then see what we can do"

The really ironic part is according to your statement that I quoted, there are some on the east that are willing to take NIC at a lower rate than you are willing to take NIc. But don't worry. I don't think there is a chance that doug is going to cough up enough money for anything more than seperate ops.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I am not trying to bait you into anything, since i have always said Tempe CAN pay enough to get a NIC voted in. I just don't think Doug is willing to cough up enough to do it.

BINGO! I agree that a contract with the Nic could definitely pass with enough money thrown at it, but the Tempe brain trust thinks the Kirby proposal is a good deal. What a joke! If not for the Nic, the west guys would probably reject the Kirby proposal, but then they would probably vote for an LOA 93-type contract if it contained Nic.

Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but were you not a big USAPA supporter prior to the CBA vote?

You are entirely correct. Big-time USAPA supporter until getting fired. ALPA saved the job, and in eternal gratitude, became an ALPA apologist and company cheerleader.

The problem is East pilots are afraid of learning about a different system and they're comfortable with Line Construction, SAP, and the AIL. This system is antiquated. Even the West PBS, DPU, MAESTRO, and Trip Trade Board is antiquated in comparison to DALs' pilot scheduling system. The new system the Company is going to implement with the AFA is far superior to all of these scheduling programs. and is like SAP on steroids

The part I love about the West PBS, DPU, MAESTRO, and Trip Trade Board is the availability to be able to schedule your self and make instantaneous changes with a Smart Phone.

This is just another example of how USAPA's approach is hurting the pilots.

That's crap. The west PBS is one of the very earliest pieces of software made to do that job. It was probably wow-golly-gee-whiz in its day, like 20+ years ago. By today's standards it's a joke. And the company has made no indication that they intend to use anything else for the combined groups. Luckily, USAPA has to approve any PBS for the east before it can be implemented. Barring Tempe from shelling out the funds for a state-of-the-art system, it will never happen on the east. Most of us are perfectly willing to entertain the notion of PBS, and would like a chance to give it a parallel "dry run" for a few months. I'm fairly junior on the equipment, but I say try it. And definitely try it before you buy it.

It is the company's dj, not usapa's. Her decision should only answer the company's three questions.

Whatever non-nic you want, is not one of the questions.

I agree that if anyone would be able to appeal it would have to be the company. There might be legal basis under the RLA to challenge it as an impediment to the union's freedom to bargain. Maybe, who knows.

But if Judge Silver tells the company: "The Nic is it, or you are liable to be sued," then we will see the current stalemate become the permanent stalemate.

My short list:
- Vacation
- Deadhead
- Retirement contributions
- Insurance
- Reserve rules

320 captain should be in the $160 range based on recent trends.
330 & 767 should be in the mid $180 range.

320 f/o should be around $115 putting them within striking range of current captain rates.
330 & 767 f/o should be around $130.

These are not top of the industry rates but should keep us competitive. I think there was a time we could have gotten more. But based on current events I think these are realistic targets. I am also willing to give here and there. One area would be PBS. The right system could actually work well from those I've talked to who use it. Of course the down side is productivity, which is why its such a priority to the company. But negotiations are often a give and take. Saying you will never use PBS is like saying you will never fly a 2 person airplane. It's time to join the rest of the world in the 21st Century.

God, I hope you're not on the Negotiating Committee. Your idea of acceptable is pathetic. Nic or no Nic, I would vote NO for a contract with those pay rates.

 

[Move2CLT]

BINGO! I agree that a contract with the Nic could definitely pass with enough money thrown at it, but the Tempe brain trust thinks the Kirby proposal is a good deal. What a joke! If not for the Nic, the west guys would probably reject the Kirby proposal, but then they would probably vote for an LOA 93-type contract if it contained Nic.



You are entirely correct. Big-time USAPA supporter until getting fired. ALPA saved the job, and in eternal gratitude, became an ALPA apologist and company cheerleader.



That's crap. The west PBS is one of the very earliest pieces of software made to do that job. It was probably wow-golly-gee-whiz in its day, like 20+ years ago. By today's standards it's a joke. And the company has made no indication that they intend to use anything else for the combined groups. Luckily, USAPA has to approve any PBS for the east before it can be implemented. Barring Tempe from shelling out the funds for a state-of-the-art system, it will never happen on the east. Most of us are perfectly willing to entertain the notion of PBS, and would like a chance to give it a parallel "dry run" for a few months. I'm fairly junior on the equipment, but I say try it. And definitely try it before you buy it.



I agree that if anyone would be able to appeal it would have to be the company. There might be legal basis under the RLA to challenge it as an impediment to the union's freedom to bargain. Maybe, who knows.

But if Judge Silver tells the company: "The Nic is it, or you are liable to be sued," then we will see the current stalemate become the permanent stalemate.



God, I hope you're not on the Negotiating Committee. Your idea of acceptable is pathetic. Nic or no Nic, I would vote NO for a contract with those pay rates.

You obviously haven't seen Al's list. He's happy with LOA93 as is except for the pay.

 

[nic4us]

Okay, I just wasn't clear on how I could be missing the clear language of the filing. Basically the four options are:
1. USAPAs non-Nic list is a clear violation of its DFR (a likely or probable ruling)
2. USAPAs non-Nic list is clearly not a violation of its DFR (not at all likely)
3. If the court can't rule on the DFR issue, then release US from any collusion liability (not very likely)
4. A court-imposed solution that resolves the seniority list questions without exposing US to future liability (doubtful)

At least that's how I see it

I am not so sure about number 1. We don't know what a non-Nic is, and like the 9th said, it could be something the West does not sue over, so according to the 9th, #1. is not ripe until contract ratification. I doubt Silver says otherwise, and leaves usapa free to negotiate.

2. is just the opposite, and is just as muddie by the incredibly shortsighted ruling from the 9th, and their failure to take any consideration of the TA's mandates.

3. Here we agree. LCC will not be released for some future event, that is yet to be determined. Talk about NOT RIPE!!


BTW, Silver granted the West class status today, and denied usapa's opposing motion. So, what we have is a twice certified class, (i.e. the West is still the third party to the TA) that will hand usapa and the company their asses if they get a non-Nic ratified at LCC.

DOH is DOA.

 

[USA320Pilot]

USAPA Facing a $2 Million Dollar Budget Deficit - Should USAPA Increase Our Dues Or Assess The Pilots?

Dear Subscriber,

Update for November 2, 2011

Quick Fact #204: USAPA has approximately a $2 million deficit. How should the union fund the Declaratory Judgment lawsuit, the Status Quo lawsuit, the Preliminary Injunction defense, additional NAC members, and new contract negotiations? Should USAPA increase our dues or levy an assessment of about $400 per pilot to cover it’s $1.8 million deficit?

Link to Article

Recent Quick Fact Updates

Site

Fraternally,

webadmin@unbiasedfacts.org

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[CallawayGolf]

I am not so sure about number 1. We don't know what a non-Nic is, and like the 9th said, it could be something the West does not sue over, so according to the 9th, #1. is not ripe until contract ratification. I doubt Silver says otherwise, and leaves usapa free to negotiate.

2. is just the opposite, and is just as muddie by the incredibly shortsighted ruling from the 9th, and their failure to take any consideration of the TA's mandates.

3. Here we agree. LCC will not be released for some future event, that is yet to be determined. Talk about NOT RIPE!!


BTW, Silver granted the West class status today, and denied usapa's opposing motion. So, what we have is a twice certified class, (i.e. the West is still the third party to the TA) that will hand usapa and the company their asses if they get a non-Nic ratified at LCC.

DOH is DOA.

It doesn't matter what non-NIC list USAPA negotiates for. Option 1 asks if any non-NIC list is a DFR and option 2 asks if any non-NIC list is clearly not a DFR. What the list does to the west is irrelevant to the DJ except as it may provide the west class to enjoin USAPA and US in a DFR violation lawsuit which is the harm the company is asking for relief from. Silver and Management will not care what that non-NIC list is. The harm is the same.

The Ninth was off in the weeds speculating and trying to defend their not ripe ruling by saying the west pilots may not assert their right to file a DFR if USAPA were to give them more seniority status than what the Nicolau award does. This is patently stupid because if USAPA did that they would be wide open to a DFR lawsuit from the east pilots and it would in fact be ripe and valid if such a list was in a ratified JCBA. The only way for USAPA to avoid a DFR from any west or any east pilots is to use the NIC. The Ninth failed to understand the TA and the implications of what their hypothetical list that doesn't harm the west would do to the process. Judge Silver will likely not miss this just like Wake didn't miss it.

Glad to see the west has been certified. Not unexpected, but certainly good to know.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Leonidas Update: November 2, 2011

Today, Judge Silver granted class certification for the West Pilots. You can read the full order here. For the purposes of the company’s declaratory action case (and only the declaratory action case), the West pilots are now collectively and officially represented as a class. The class representatives are the same six pilots named in the Addington litigation:

Don Addington
John Bostic
Mark Burman
AC Iranpour
Roger Velez
Steve Wargocki

Once again, these six pilots represent the tip of the spear for all West pilots. We are confident they will represent us accurately and professionally in the same manner they had before. We cannot think of a finer group of people for this important job than these six proven individuals.

Ladies and gentlemen, our fight continues. Make no mistake: every West pilot, and unionized airline employees everywhere, stand to suffer great harm should USAPA’s efforts to evade the binding arbitration ultimately prevail. It is important to remember that none of us would still be in the fight if not for the commitment of these six pilots AND the generous financial contributions from the West pilot group. It is clear that none of our adversaries expected the courage, perseverance and unity demonstrated by the former AWA Pilots in our fight for justice.

We will have a more detailed analysis of the class certification order in the near future.

That is all for now. Fight on.

Sincerely,

Leonidas, LLC

 

[Phoenix]

USAPA Facing a $2 Million Dollar Budget Deficit - Should USAPA Increase Our Dues Or Assess The Pilots?

Dear Subscriber,

Update for November 2, 2011

Quick Fact #204: USAPA has approximately a $2 million deficit. How should the union fund the Declaratory Judgment lawsuit, the Status Quo lawsuit, the Preliminary Injunction defense, additional NAC members, and new contract negotiations? Should USAPA increase our dues or levy an assessment of about $400 per pilot to cover it’s $1.8 million deficit?

..

Fraternally,

webadmin@unbiasedfacts.org

Share The Facts! We encourage you to forward this email to friends who want to know what's really going on with USAPA.

To subscribe, send a reply message with subscribe in the subject line.

To unsubscribe send a reply message with unsubscribe.

Since when did a leading question become an unbiased "fact"?

 

[cynic]

Okay, I just wasn't clear on how I could be missing the clear language of the filing. Basically the four options are:
1. USAPAs non-Nic list is a clear violation of its DFR (a likely or probable ruling)
2. USAPAs non-Nic list is clearly not a violation of its DFR (not at all likely)
3. If the court can't rule on the DFR issue, then release US from any collusion liability (not very likely)
4. A court-imposed solution that resolves the seniority list questions without exposing US to future liability (doubtful)

At least that's how I see it

Any list that doesn't include Nis will leave the union and company open to legal action. If it is more generous to the west, East pilots will sue. If it's less generous to the West, they will sue. Using the Nic is the only way a contract gets done without yet another legal battle. Is it possible that a list could be generated that isn't Nic and could satisfy both sides? I guess so, but I can't imagine it and I doubt anyone else can.

I can see the court telling the company that any list other than Nic will leave them open to legal action. That would effectively shoot down any chance for a different list, in my opinion.

 

[luvthe9]

Leonidas Update: November 2, 2011

Today, Judge Silver granted class certification for the West Pilots. You can read the full order here. For the purposes of the company’s declaratory action case (and only the declaratory action case), the West pilots are now collectively and officially represented as a class. The class representatives are the same six pilots named in the Addington litigation:

Don Addington
John Bostic
Mark Burman
AC Iranpour
Roger Velez
Steve Wargocki

Once again, these six pilots represent the tip of the spear for all West pilots. We are confident they will represent us accurately and professionally in the same manner they had before. We cannot think of a finer group of people for this important job than these six proven individuals.

These guys are like those wacky Japanese soldiers who would never surrender. They just holed up in their caves for a similar lost cause. Without Wake they are lost.

Ladies and gentlemen, our fight continues. Make no mistake: every West pilot, and unionized airline employees everywhere, stand to suffer great harm should USAPA’s efforts to evade the binding arbitration ultimately prevail. It is important to remember that none of us would still be in the fight if not for the commitment of these six pilots AND the generous financial contributions from the West pilot group. It is clear that none of our adversaries expected the courage, perseverance and unity demonstrated by the former AWA Pilots in our fight for justice.

We will have a more detailed analysis of the class certification order in the near future.

That is all for now. Fight on.

Sincerely,

Leonidas, LLC

 

[prechilill]

The Ninth was off in the weeds speculating and trying to defend their not ripe ruling by saying the west pilots may not assert their right to file a DFR if USAPA were to give them more seniority status than what the Nicolau award does. This is patently stupid because if USAPA did that they would be wide open to a DFR lawsuit from the east pilots and it would in fact be ripe and valid if such a list was in a ratified JCBA. The only way for USAPA to avoid a DFR from any west or any east pilots is to use the NIC. The Ninth failed to understand the TA and the implications of what their hypothetical list that doesn't harm the west would do to the process. Judge Silver will likely not miss this just like Wake didn't miss it.

Glad to see the west has been certified. Not unexpected, but certainly good to know.

Outstanding post.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

You can do that????

I need a new phone!!!!!

His entire life is a lie.

 

[nic4us]

It doesn't matter what non-NIC list USAPA negotiates for. Option 1 asks if any non-NIC list is a DFR and option 2 asks if any non-NIC list is clearly not a DFR. What the list does to the west is irrelevant to the DJ except as it may provide the west class to enjoin USAPA and US in a DFR violation lawsuit which is the harm the company is asking for relief from. Silver and Management will not care what that non-NIC list is. The harm is the same.

The Ninth was off in the weeds speculating and trying to defend their not ripe ruling by saying the west pilots may not assert their right to file a DFR if USAPA were to give them more seniority status than what the Nicolau award does. This is patently stupid because if USAPA did that they would be wide open to a DFR lawsuit from the east pilots and it would in fact be ripe and valid if such a list was in a ratified JCBA. The only way for USAPA to avoid a DFR from any west or any east pilots is to use the NIC. The Ninth failed to understand the TA and the implications of what their hypothetical list that doesn't harm the west would do to the process. Judge Silver will likely not miss this just like Wake didn't miss it.

Glad to see the west has been certified. Not unexpected, but certainly good to know.

The West being given class status was the only logical choice. The West pilots collectively and individually are the third party to the TA. I do not know if usapa is plain stupid in their motion against class status, or if it was just another delay tactic, but you got to have the West to answer the questions.

The only real question being, can LCC be held liable to the West pilots for violating their TA contractual obligations?

Bottom line, barring any over the top ruling from Silver, LCC is on the hook if they negotiate away from the TA and join usapa in their ongoing DFR toward the West. big issue for the company, is that the DFR failure began in 2008, and they already colluded with usapa by allowing junior pilots to retain employment over pilots senior to them. So, the damages started in 2008.