US Pilots Labor Discussion

[prechilill]

Yes, your captain upgrades should indeed move along exactly according to your seniority list.

And your seniority list is ordered how?

Date of Hire at America West Airlines...
Try this on for size, how much did Colela's date of hire help him getting into the left seat of an AWA airbus?

That's what I thought...

You keep what you bring to the merger, not what you can steal.

Get it? Thieves usually do...

 

[Keroseneuser]

We did, last time I checked all of our captains upgraded exactly according to our seniority list. What the west is doing is preventing people like you from stealing our attrition and upgrades with your DOH cram down. Thieves...

I don't think anybody on the east would have a problem with staying seperate ops. The east group I bet would agree to that today. Then we can all go to Doug and say its all worked out and get some new pay rates negotiated. One contract two lists for all hired before 2005. Let the pilots hired after 2005 bid back and forth where they please, the rest of us keep the attrition that each side has.

West keeps their attrition and upgrades and East keeps their attrition and upgrades.

Yes, your captain upgrades should indeed move along exactly according to your seniority list.

And your seniority list is ordered how?

Date of Hire at America West Airlines...
Try this on for size, how much did Colela's date of hire help him getting into the left seat of an AWA airbus?

That's what I thought...

You keep what you bring to the merger, not what you can steal.

Get it? Thieves usually do...

Hmm, odd that he ignored my idea. Seems he is all about calling a DOH type out on "attrition and upgrade stealing" but is not willing to stand alone on the west attrition. Guess the west is not retiring fast enough to suit him.

 

[prechilill]

Hmm, odd that he ignored my idea. Seems he is all about calling a DOH type out on "attrition and upgrade stealing" but is not willing to stand alone on the west attrition. Guess the west is not retiring fast enough to suit him.

Agreed, integrating two separate seniority lists by Date of Hire is simply one idea, in this case yours. I have another idea for integrating two separate seniority lists which is fair and takes into account the relative position for everybody- it's pretty simple actually... a ratio. Third grade math

 

[No Land Green]

Hmm, odd that he ignored my idea. Seems he is all about calling a DOH type out on "attrition and upgrade stealing" but is not willing to stand alone on the west attrition. Guess the west is not retiring fast enough to suit him.

Stagnation is killing them. Even more so when the East retirements kick in (again) soon.......It's hysterical when one has to rely on another's attrition for advancement. Keep it separate indefinitely, Parker likes it that way too. 😉

 

[Keroseneuser]

Stagnation is killing them. Even more so when the East retirements kick in (again) soon.......It's hysterical when one has to rely on another's attrition for advancement. Keep it separate indefinitely, Parker likes it that way too. 😉

I agree, Parker has no intention of letting things progress to a joint contract. The company feet dragging in all things negotiation is proof of it.

There is no financial advantage to the company with the combining of these two lists at this time. Parker has the best of both worlds. His old top of scale employees are due to retire in droves, he has the lowest pilot costs in the industry, and the west goes out of their way busting their butt for on time performance and to cover understaffing so they can spite the east who was trying to put pressure on the company for better pay rates. And the west list has minimal training costs in the next 9 years with only 400 retiring. Gives the company a bit of breathing room to counter the large training float the east has coming up. A joint NIC list means millions more spent in training for the west also.

The Status Quo is a Win Win for Parker.

 

[Res Judicata]

Just read the USAPA "Legal Update" 11-02-11. I had the following epiphany:

I wish I had a dollar for every time USAPA LOST a court battle and then went on to say the LOSS "wasn't unexpected". Kinda makes you wonder what other losses are on the horizon that USAPA fully expects to occur. These Scumbag, Arrogant, Idiotic, wannabe Union Thugs and Thieves have cost ALL of us dearly...close to a BILLION dollars lost and not a SINGLE campaign promise has come to fruition.

Everybody likes to stare at a train wreck, Nobody enjoys actually being in one. Except the USCABA "leadership" of course.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Just read the USAPA "Legal Update" 11-02-11. I had the following epiphany:

I wish I had a dollar for every time USAPA LOST a court battle and then went on to say the LOSS "wasn't unexpected". Kinda makes you wonder what other losses are on the horizon that USAPA fully expects to occur. These Scumbag, Arrogant, Idiotic, wannabe Union Thugs and Thieves have cost ALL of us dearly...close to a BILLION dollars lost and not a SINGLE campaign promise has come to fruition.

Everybody likes to stare at a train wreck, Nobody enjoys actually being in one. Except the USCABA "leadership" of course.

Had USAPA agreed from the get go and accepted NIC. I still think we would be where we are today. Parker does not want a joint list. It is too expensive for him.

As long as he has every west pilot calling USAPA scabs, theives, and thugs and busting their butt for him he gets exactly what he wants AND gets to look like the good guy.

 

[No Land Green]

As long as he has every west pilot calling USAPA scabs, theives, and thugs and busting their butt for him he gets exactly what he wants AND gets to look like the good guy.

ALPA National endorsed "Divide and Conquer" in it's finest hour. LCC Management had the biggest unexpected gift dropped in it's lap by the World' largest Pilot Association (Labor Union???)......LOL, I guess it's going to be real hard to "fix stupid"......LMAO!!!!!

 

[cleardirect]

For those of you old enough to remember Johnny Carson:

The Great Carnak says:

Answer:
Several thousand that are two, and also one, and nobody is happy.

Question:
The east and west when this is all said and done.

Meaning that each side will litigate using every legal avenue to do so, there will eventually be a last litigation. The process will last for years to come. I suspect given the legal system in the U.S. that the last and final result will be something that neither side counted on or really likes.

But by then, I doubt it is really going to matter. We are six years into it. Many who were here at the beginning of this process are out enjoying retirement, or in a couple cases still posting here and arguing something that is a left over of their past life that they cannot let go of. Many more that are here now wont be when it is done.

I think when it is all done and something is finally agreed upon or court ordered, of the roughly 4046 current active pilots east and west , there may be at best 500 to 800 total left.
The bulk of the pilot group that will be here when it is all said and done have not been hired yet.

If there was only a system or process that could avoid expensive and lengthy legal battles.

Oh wait there is. It is called FINAL AND BINDING arbitration. We did that. That is the entire point of arbitration to save money and time. If you east guys would accept the result of that process we all would save millions of dollars and years of time. Getting a new contract.

Are you beginning to understand? Instead you may be correct. There may only be a small number left when this ends. But it will be west pilots left standing. You guys can retire bitter and broke or accept what you agreed to in FINAL AND BINDING arbitration.

Separate ops is fine with us. I am beginning to hear more and more "screw those guys they can stay on LOA 93 forever"

 

[No Land Green]

Separate ops is fine with us. I am beginning to hear more and more "screw those guys they can stay on LOA 93 forever"

Please forward this to LCC Management, thanks. 😉

 

[Keroseneuser]

Separate ops is fine with us. I am beginning to hear more and more "screw those guys they can stay on LOA 93 forever"

Agreed. It looks like we have finally found something that both sides can agree on. Over here most of what I hear is "Screw those guys let them stagnate, seperate ops is better for most of us anyhow"

It is obvious that there will be no capitulation on either side. That seems to be fine with the east, west and the company. So in a way, everybody wins.

 

[nic4us]

If integrity matters, then why is the west not wiling to earn their seniority. Why are they so willing to take advantage of a group that was down on their luck? What a joke!

Your post reeks of ignorance and arrogance.

 

[Res Judicata]

Agreed. It looks like we have finally found something that both sides can agree on. Over here most of what I hear is "Screw those guys let them stagnate, seperate ops is better for most of us anyhow"

It is obvious that there will be no capitulation on either side. That seems to be fine with the east, west and the company. So in a way, everybody wins.

Why have a union then? Why pay exorbitant fees? I'd LOVE to keep fleet mins and separate ops FOREVER provided I could earn Industry standard pay. Unfortunately we can't have both. You guys tried that and ended up getting all of us in a Permanent Injunction. The West needs to get re-organized and stop paying all dues immediately. The Legal fight would collapse just as quickly as USCABA runs head first into Bankruptcy. Who Cares? East or West? Who cares if this useless organization evaporates? Would you even notice it's absence?

 

[Keroseneuser]

Why have a union then? Why pay exorbitant fees? I'd LOVE to keep fleet mins and separate ops FOREVER provided I could earn Industry standard pay. Unfortunately we can't have both. You guys tried that and ended up getting all of us in a Permanent Injunction. The West needs to get re-organized and stop paying all dues immediately. The Legal fight would collapse just as quickly as USCABA runs head first into Bankruptcy. Who Cares? East or West? Who cares if this useless organization evaporates? Would you even notice it's absence?

Well for the next dozen years or so a union will be required to keep the company in check on all their many hose jobs they like to dole out.

After the next dozen years or so when the pilots that have not been hired yet are the majority, I suspect they will take power and negotiate themselves a nice package, probably at the expense of the last remaining "NIC or nothing" and "DOH or nothing" crowd. To them, the remaining hard core crowd will be nothing but a troublesome speedbump to be smoothed over and repaved.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Separate ops is fine with us. I am beginning to hear more and more "screw those guys they can stay on LOA 93 forever"

I'll fourth that motion.