US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

And the position upgrades go by what order

And your seniority list goes by what order

The positions go by SENIORITY order.

The seniority goes by DOH and DOB at AWA, with minor exceptions within a class for prior employees.


So, the question begs,,,,how was seniority at AAA arranged? Not by DOH, ask the Empire pilots. Not by LOS, not even by DOB. The seniority list the east brought to the table was the end result of numerous arbitrated seniority integrations. I would think the east would have a pretty good handle on how this works.

Two seperate lists are combined into one. My SENIORITY at AWA is integrated with your SENIORITY at AAA. You failed to be resonable in negotiations and mediations, so it went to an arbitrator, who constructed a final and binding award, that integrated my seniority with yours.

Now our combined list also goes by DOH. We were all employed at LCC on the same date in 2005. So, we all have the same DOH, and a seniority list that keeps us in our relative positions measured against our pre-merger positions and SENIORITY, not our pre-merger DOHs at former airlines.

 

[Res Judicata]

Well for the next dozen years or so a union will be required to keep the company in check on all their many hose jobs they like to dole out.

After the next dozen years or so when the pilots that have not been hired yet are the majority, I suspect they will take power and negotiate themselves a nice package, probably at the expense of the last remaining "NIC or nothing" and "DOH or nothing" crowd. To them, the remaining hard core crowd will be nothing but a troublesome speedbump to be smoothed over and repaved.

It's already happening. We all know the Angry FO club is running the show...a hardcore group of 800 or so. USAPA would NEVER have won the election if everybody knew then what they know now. Never. It won't take a dozen years, it will take a Federal court and some leadership. Leadership has been entirely absent to date.

 

[nic4us]

Yes, your captain upgrades should indeed move along exactly according to your seniority list.

And your seniority list is ordered how?

Ours was ordered from the most senior to the most junior.

I assume yours was the same????

 

[cleardirect]

Agreed. It looks like we have finally found something that both sides can agree on. Over here most of what I hear is "Screw those guys let them stagnate, seperate ops is better for most of us anyhow"

It is obvious that there will be no capitulation on either side. That seems to be fine with the east, west and the company. So in a way, everybody wins.

Guess we should shut down the NAC and send those guys back to the line. Cancel strike prep no reason to have that.

Save some money and stop pretending that the union that is supposed to improve and protect the contract can't do either.

 

[Move2CLT]

Translation: "I make stuff up on this message board all the time so don't ask me for facts because I don't have any, just opinions"

Thank you.

 

[Move2CLT]

I'll fourth that motion.

Then make sure you talk to your buddies and tell them to stop begging Doug for parity at the crew news.

 

[Keroseneuser]

It's already happening. We all know the Angry FO club is running the show...a hardcore group of 800 or so. USAPA would NEVER have won the election if everybody knew then what they know now. Never. It won't take a dozen years, it will take a Federal court and some leadership. Leadership has been entirely absent to date.

Agree on the court part. But by the time Doug gets around to letting the negotiations get to a T/A, which only then can "harm" be proved or disproved, and allow a serious legal battle on the subject to commence. Well, that was where the "dozen or so years" I mentioned comes in.

Even if we were one unified group today, I doubt that the company would cooperate enough to get a T/A done in the next 5 years. Tempe has exactly what they want now. They will do, and have been doing, everything they possibly can and using every delay tactic possible to hold off a new contract.

 

[Move2CLT]

Yes, your captain upgrades should indeed move along exactly according to your seniority list.

And your seniority list is ordered how?

Uh oh. Watch out boys, he's setting you up here with that original question.

Regular Enstein.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The problem with all of this Kumbya on separate ops forever is that USAPA, or whoever the bargaining agent may be going forward, has a federally-mandated responsibility to negotiate in good faith for a new contract now that both east and west contracts have become amendable. So if judge Silver rules that any seniority list other than the Nic is a clear violation of the DFR provision, then that stumbling block can no longer be used delay the negotiations. Once that happens negotiations under the supervision of the mediator will progress towards a tentative agreement that must be put out for a vote. This of course is a nightmare scenario for USAPA because the last thing they want is a Nic-inclusive TA out there for the rank and file to vote on. When all hope for a DOH-based contract is lost by court order, the USAPA hard liners will fade into the background and the TA vote will likely result in a ratified joint contract.

I doubt Silver will issue a summary judgement, but things may progress rather quickly after the December 1st hearing. If USAPA loses in district court, they may not have the financial resources to mount an appeal to the Ninth which would not turn out favorably for USAPA this time around, in my opinion anyway. So, despite all attempts at a delaying the Nic to the bitter end, this mess could well be wrapped up in 12-18 months from now. Courts and the NMB board are slow, but I think the DJ ruling will be the last chapter in USAPA's attempt to delay justice and deny the pilots a chance for a new contract.

 

[cleardirect]

Well for the next dozen years or so a union will be required to keep the company in check on all their many hose jobs they like to dole out.

After the next dozen years or so when the pilots that have not been hired yet are the majority, I suspect they will take power and negotiate themselves a nice package, probably at the expense of the last remaining "NIC or nothing" and "DOH or nothing" crowd. To them, the remaining hard core crowd will be nothing but a troublesome speedbump to be smoothed over and repaved.

How has usapa and AAA ALPA kept the company in check for the last 20 years? Might as well end the grievance committee too. Since they have over 600 grievances that can't be finished.

Wait who is the grievance chair? Who was the grievance chair for the last 20 years under ALPA?

Shut down NAC, strike prep, grievance. What is left for the union to do?

Dues collection, legal and communications. Boy that right there is a powerhouse union.

 

[Keroseneuser]

The problem with all of this Kumbya on separate ops forever is that USAPA, or whoever the bargaining agent may be going forward, has a federally-mandated responsibility to negotiate in good faith for a new contract now that both east and west contracts have become amendable. So if judge Silver rules that any seniority list other than the Nic is a clear violation of the DFR provision, then that stumbling block can no longer be used delay the negotiations. Once that happens negotiations under the supervision of the mediator will progress towards a tentative agreement that must be put out for a vote. This of course is a nightmare scenario for USAPA because the last thing they want is a Nic-inclusive TA out there for the rank and file to vote on. When all hope for a DOH-based contract is lost by court order, the USAPA hard liners will fade into the background and the TA vote will likely result in a ratified joint contract.

I doubt Silver will issue a summary judgement, but things may progress rather quickly after the December 1st hearing. If USAPA loses in district court, they may not have the financial resources to mount an appeal to the Ninth which would not turn out favorably for USAPA this time around, in my opinion anyway. So, despite all attempts at a delaying the Nic to the bitter end, this mess could well be wrapped up in 12-18 months from now. Courts and the NMB board are slow, but I think the DJ ruling will be the last chapter in USAPA's attempt to delay justice and deny the pilots a chance for a new contract.

On here we have already seen some west guys say they will not vote for a NIC contract that only includes a token raise for the west. I assume they are Captain already over there. Tempe is not going to cough up anything close to industry standard, they never have in their history. Given that 800 east f/o's wont vote for a t/a with NIC, and unless Doug coughs up a lot of money neither will the senior east or west, the senior east and west wont vote the t/a in since both would take some kind of seniority hit even with NIC.

In that possible scenario, the union would indeed have been negotiating in good faith, including the NIC and still not get a t/a with it passed. result, still seperate ops. with no DFR recourse from anybody.

What we have is 800 for sure no votes on a NIC from the east. 700 for sure yes votes on a NIC on the west 700 "depends on the rates" on the west, and 1600 "It better be a huge raise" to ever pass a NIC on the east. All after your 18 month period when the east is in its biggest retirement phase in its history with upgrades going like popcorn.

This is a simplistic way to look at it I know, but basically thats what we have as far as I can see.

 

[Keroseneuser]

How has usapa and AAA ALPA kept the company in check for the last 20 years? Might as well end the grievance committee too. Since they have over 600 grievances that can't be finished.

Hehe, tell me about it. Sadly we are not alone in that department. Talking to jumpseaters, Continental, United, republic, etc etc, all have HUGE greivance backlogs. The CEO's are masters at delay tactics anymore. Think it is a first year requirement at harvard "Delay 101" part of the "School of Employee Screwage" they have going.

 

[CallawayGolf]

On here we have already seen some west guys say they will not vote for a NIC contract that only includes a token raise for the west. I assume they are Captain already over there. Tempe is not going to cough up anything close to industry standard, they never have in their history. Given that 800 east f/o's wont vote for a t/a with NIC, and unless Doug coughs up a lot of money neither will the senior east or west, the senior east and west wont vote the t/a in since both would take some kind of seniority hit even with NIC.

In that possible scenario, the union would indeed have been negotiating in good faith, including the NIC and still not get a t/a with it passed. result, still seperate ops. with no DFR recourse from anybody.

What we have is 800 for sure no votes on a NIC from the east. 700 for sure yes votes on a NIC on the west 700 "depends on the rates" on the west, and 1600 "It better be a huge raise" to ever pass a NIC on the east. All after your 18 month period when the east is in its biggest retirement phase in its history with upgrades going like popcorn.

This is a simplistic way to look at it I know, but basically thats what we have as far as I can see.

I don't believe the voting history of both groups supports your assertions. How many contracts have the east or west pilots failed to ratify by popular vote in the past two decades? Once the NIC question is settled and a TA is out for a vote do you really think after this long pilots already in the left seat will say, "no, I want to hold out for even more"? The compensation already lost to the futile effort to overturn the Nic is painful enough without adding to it by rejecting a decent best and final offer by Management.

 

[nic4us]

From the latest usapa legal update.


"The central issue in the Declaratory Judgment action is whether or not USAPA is required to implement the Nicolau Award. The Addington parties, as they did in the original Addington case, claim that USAPA is required to implement the Award and that the failure to do so violates USAPA's duty of fair representation to the West Pilots. USAPA has consistently maintained that it is not a party to or bound by the Award, that under the Railway Labor Act seniority is a matter that must be addressed in negotiations with US Airways for a new collective agreement, that the Union's duty is to fairly represent the interests of the entire pilot group and that considering, proposing, and negotiating something other than the Nicolau Award does not violate its duty of fair representation."


1. usapa is correct, they are not a party to the Nic award. They just have a DFR to the two groups of pilots that are. Oh, and that includes the West pilot class, they always seem to forget that part.

2. The central issue has nothing to do with usapa. The central issue is whether the COMPANY is required to insist on the Nic as their negotiating position. usapa is free to put out any DFR laced proposal it wishes, so negotiate away usapa, the company will be held liable if they break their contract with the West pilots and collude in your seniority theft scandal.

 

[cleardirect]

I don't believe the voting history of both groups supports your assertions. How many contracts have the east or west pilots failed to ratify by popular vote in the past two decades? Once the NIC question is settled and a TA is out for a vote do you really think after this long pilots already in the left seat will say, "no, I want to hold out for even more"? The compensation already lost to the futile effort to overturn the Nic is painful enough without adding to it by rejecting a decent best and final offer by Management.

Yes the court will settle this. When the Nicolau is the only seniority list available the T/A will follow. There will be no choice.

Just like when both engines quit on 1549. The choice was made. There was no continuing status quo. that airplane was going down. When the court rules it is the Nicolau a T/A will be voted in.