US Pilots Labor Discussion

[john john]

I TA is out for a vote do you really think after this long pilots already in the left seat will say, "no, I want to hold out for even more"? The compensation already lost to the futile effort to overturn the Nic is painful enough without adding to it by rejecting a decent best and final offer by Management.

Do I have this right the east gets all east upgrades and then if a new contract is passed with the nic. The east sill gets to kept the upgrades already achieved form a snap shot of ratification

 

[john john]

If USAPA loses in district court, they may not have the financial resources to mount an appeal to the Ninth which would not turn out favorably for USAPA this time around, in my opinion anyway. So, despite all attempts at a delaying the Nic to the bitter end, this mess could well be wrapped up in 12-18 months from now. Courts and the NMB board are slow, but I think the DJ ruling will be the last chapter in USAPA's attempt to delay justice and deny the pilots a chance for a new contract.

Does Leonidas have the financial resources to mount an appeal

 

[Move2CLT]

Does Leonidas have the financial resources to mount an appeal

To which appeal are you referring?

 

[Res Judicata]

Does Leonidas have the financial resources to mount an appeal

Has money ever slowed down AOL? No. They are flushed with cash and will fight the scabs at every opportunity. I'd be more concerned with USAPAS financial situation right now...did you see when they removed the prohibition of deficit spending a few weeks ago? Guess what that means? If the west stopped paying en masse, USAPA would be BK in a matter of weeks.

 

[john john]

To which appeal are you referring?

pick one

 

[luvthe9]

Has money ever slowed down AOL? No. They are flushed with cash and will fight the scabs at every opportunity. I'd be more concerned with USAPAS financial situation right now...did you see when they removed the prohibition of deficit spending a few weeks ago? Guess what that means? If the west stopped paying en masse, USAPA would be BK in a matter of weeks.

It's always nice to pretend!!!

 

[traderjake]

It's always nice to pretend!!!

..............................................you know what's going to happen!!!

 

[Move2CLT]

pick one

Ah, so you have no idea what you're talking about.

Copy.

 

[Move2CLT]

It's always nice to pretend!!!

You do realize money has never been an issue after all these years, right?

We!ve shut down your DOH dream, right?

USAPA is on record for approving deficit spending,right?

USAPA now spends a ton more money on lawyers, right?

Which part is pretend?

 

[Res Judicata]

Which part is pretend?

The part where DOH is just around the corner with an Industry Standard Contract.

 

[CallawayGolf]

From the latest usapa legal update.


"The central issue in the Declaratory Judgment action is whether or not USAPA is required to implement the Nicolau Award. The Addington parties, as they did in the original Addington case, claim that USAPA is required to implement the Award and that the failure to do so violates USAPA's duty of fair representation to the West Pilots. USAPA has consistently maintained that it is not a party to or bound by the Award, that under the Railway Labor Act seniority is a matter that must be addressed in negotiations with US Airways for a new collective agreement, that the Union's duty is to fairly represent the interests of the entire pilot group and that considering, proposing, and negotiating something other than the Nicolau Award does not violate its duty of fair representation."


1. usapa is correct, they are not a party to the Nic award. They just have a DFR to the two groups of pilots that are. Oh, and that includes the West pilot class, they always seem to forget that part.

2. The central issue has nothing to do with usapa. The central issue is whether the COMPANY is required to insist on the Nic as their negotiating position. usapa is free to put out any DFR laced proposal it wishes, so negotiate away usapa, the company will be held liable if they break their contract with the West pilots and collude in your seniority theft scandal.

Well just what does USAPA think the central issue in the DJ is if it's not the NIC? The Companys prayer for relief options 1,2,3 all reference the Nic in the conxtex of a DFR. Option three asks for Company exoneration if the court cannot determine the DFR question related to a non-Nic list. So only option 4 doesn't reference the Nic and the DFR because they left an open-ended option for the court to decide a remedy that hasn't been considered yet. So again, how is the Nic (or the absence of the Nic) not the central issue in the company's DJ?

The Company is aware from case law that knowingly entering into an agreement with a CBA that would clearly violate the union's DFR responsibility is a recipe for being sued for collusion. Doing so would subject the Company to substantial legal liabilities to those who would be treated unfairly by such an illegal agreement per the RLA. Thus the only question that matters is, "does a non-Nic list constitute a clear DFR according to the RLA, especially considering the unanimous verdict that was rendered by the jury in the Addington trial?" That is the central question of the DJ. If they made this statement, then it looks like USAPA's new legal team is less aware of the law and the facts in this case than even $eham was. Perhaps Cleary is hoping for a mistrial due to attorney misconduct and incompetence from USAPA's legal team.

 

[Res Judicata]

Well just what does USAPA think the central issue in the DJ is if it's not the NIC? The Companys prayer for relief options 1,2,3 all reference the Nic in the conxtex of a DFR. Option three asks for Company exoneration if the court cannot determine the DFR question related to a non-Nic list. So only option 4 doesn't reference the Nic and the DFR because they left an open-ended option for the court to decide a remedy that hasn't been considered yet. So again, how is the Nic (or the absence of the Nic) not the central issue in the company's DJ?

The Company is aware from case law that knowingly entering into an agreement with a CBA that would clearly violate the union's DFR responsibility is a recipe for being sued for collusion. Doing so would subject the Company to substantial legal liabilities to those who would be treated unfairly by such an illegal agreement per the RLA. Thus the only question that matters is, "does a non-Nic list constitute a clear DFR according to the RLA, especially considering the unanimous verdict that was rendered by the jury in the Addington trial?" That is the central question of the DJ. If they made this statement, then it looks like USAPA's new legal team is less aware of the law and the facts in this case than even $eham was. Perhaps Cleary is hoping for a mistrial due to attorney misconduct and incompetence from USAPA's legal team.

Remember when Wake described USAPA as intentionally misleading and "severing facts from their environment". Here we go again. This Legal Update is a Joke. Either they are incredibly stupid, which I tend to believe or they're simply lying again...just as plausible. The Central issue isn't about USAPA at all. NOT AT ALL. They can't even get the most basic facts straight.

 

[eastcoast]

Hmm, odd that he ignored my idea. Seems he is all about calling a DOH type out on "attrition and upgrade stealing" but is not willing to stand alone on the west attrition. Guess the west is not retiring fast enough to suit him.

This whole "stand alone" and "keep our attrition" thing never made any sense, and was ignored when I brought it up. If the west brings 1/3 of the seats, and we bring 2/3 of the seats, and the arbitrated award gives us 2/3 of the upgrades, then it seems to me that we DO keep our attrition. Anything else just wreaks of "we want it all until we are good and ready to let you have yours." We all know the ups and downs we've had in our history and the sacrifices we made along the way. But the idea that our west counterparts must pay for our misfortune with their good fortune never sat right with me.

Lets not forget that many of our retirements will come from the right seat and create little movement and no financial benefit for anyone. Separate ops also does not account for the fact that we are no longer separate airlines. Assets are now moved where they make the most sense. Part of the benefit was that our previously unprofitable flying was made profitable by the macro economics of the merger, such as additional feed from the west among other things. Costs have been diluted making some west flying less profitable and some east flying more profitable. Have you all forgotten that we were not solvent at the time?

This will go on in court until our union runs out of gamesmanship or money. IMO there is enough dissension in the ranks to pass a contract and move on, when one is finally presented for a vote. The only other option I see is ANOTHER new union, barring all previous ALPA and USAPA officers from office, presenting a DFR free, Nic inclusive contract. That COULD happen after Kasher's decision is released.

 

[nevergiveup]

Your post reeks of ignorance and arrogance.

But soo correct!

 

[Keroseneuser]

I don't believe the voting history of both groups supports your assertions. How many contracts have the east or west pilots failed to ratify by popular vote in the past two decades? Once the NIC question is settled and a TA is out for a vote do you really think after this long pilots already in the left seat will say, "no, I want to hold out for even more"? The compensation already lost to the futile effort to overturn the Nic is painful enough without adding to it by rejecting a decent best and final offer by Management.

Anything is possible. However I don't think you could get a nic to pass today with any offer we have seen from the company to date. And as you pointed out the absolute earliest we can expect such a vote to occur is some point past the 12 to 18 months you pointed out. then with company feet dragging, since joint ops and a new contract is not in their best interest....what? maybe 2 to 3 years from now. By three years from now 350 east pilots are gone not counting early outs and medicals, with about 200 to 300 retiring every year until 2020. With movement like that happening and the hit that NIC would put on a bunch of guys in their late 50's and early 60's..a lot of them would in effect be voting "Yes" if I want to finish as an F/O. Or "NO" if I want to finish as a Captain.

Considering that. I think the only way to ensure a "yes" vote from those guys would have to include F/O pay rates at least equal to what the current captain rates on the east are. I think there is a better shot at seeing Doug strip naked in a road show and start doing beer bongs while listening to rap music than seeing him agree to 120 or 125 an hour for f/o's! 😱