US Pilots Labor Discussion

[CallawayGolf]

Best we can figure from past number crunching on here even with the over 65 f'o's we are looking at 1000 of the 1208 active captains gone in 9 years. With the other 780 east retirements of the 1780+ in 9 years being either f/o or ones out on medical or other leaves. the number of total retires is probably going to be higher since we are already losing a small but steady stream a full 12 months before the 65 date kicks in.

Under NIc we add another 400 capts gone from the west in 9 years. In effect that is most of the current Captains at the airline.

Most of the 1780 retires from the east are NOT in the 800 that would be put on the bottom of the NIC pile. So that leaves somewhere in neighborhood of 720 (currently active and non active)east pilots that are slotted in according to NIC, with many of those remaining junior to a lot of the west guys.

700 west f/o's roughly + 720 left over none bottom of list east f/o's in 9 years= 1420 f/o's to fill 1400 vacant captain seats on east and west combined. In effect a full turnover of west f/o's by end of decade. no matter how you slice it, that is a massive amount of movement that will cause massive reshuffle from the top of the list to the bottom.

Base numbers, 1400 west guys, 3300 east guys with 2646 active. Not exact numbers of course, but to facilitate that kind of movement from west f/o to east captain there is a lot of cross country movement. Not all will take upgrade and commute, but no way to predict the numbers.

Well nine years is very different than what you were implying about Tempe calculating the costs of the NIC for movement. A lot can happen in nine years to change things.

Nevertheless, I'll use your numbers as fact in the following analysis.

First a summary:
1,000 east captains retiring in nine years
400 west captains retiring in nine years
720 active east F/Os eligible for upgrade
700 active west F/Os eligible for upgrades

That equals 1,400 total movements from right to left seat. The NIC integrates east/west pilots using a 2:1 ratio so 934 of the 1,400 seats will be taken by east F/Os and 466 of the 1,400 seats will be taken by west F/Os using the integrated list.

If the NIC is not implemented and ops remain separate, then the east would get all 1,000 seats upgrade instead of the 934 using the NIC. That is a variance of 66 seats or 9% of the 720 eligible east F/Os. Conversely, the west would get 400 left seat upgrades instead of the 466 that would be available under the NIC, a loss of 15% in total upgrades by remaining separate.

So all of this hand-wringing and delayed wage improvements is over 66 seats which negatively effects less than 10 percent of the east F/O population and only 2.5% of the current active east population over a period of nine years. The 97.5% of the active east pilots that are not affected by the seniority list integration at all must be quite committed to the 2.5% who are. Furthermore, it's not like the west wasn't affected negatively by the NIC. The east got the top 517 super seniority status placing the top 517 west pilots well below they east counterparts.

There is no way six to ten years of contract delays is worth what you are doing to protect 66 seat upgrades over nine years. The 2,580 active east pilots who are not affected by the NIC could have easily chipped in to make up the difference for the 66 F/Os in terms of lost potential pay and still be way ahead of the game. Instead you have turned down hundreds of millions of dollars in wage improvements and spent millions in attorney fees to show solidarity with 66 east F/Os. And you lost your integrity and reputation to boot.

 

[prechilill]

Well done CG, excellent post.

 

[nevergiveup]

Well nine years is very different than what you were implying about Tempe calculating the costs of the NIC for movement. A lot can happen in nine years to change things.

Nevertheless, I'll use your numbers as fact in the following analysis.

First a summary:
1,000 east captains retiring in nine years
400 west captains retiring in nine years
720 active east F/Os eligible for upgrade
700 active west F/Os eligible for upgrades

That equals 1,400 total movements from right to left seat. The NIC integrates east/west pilots using a 2:1 ratio so 934 of the 1,400 seats will be taken by east F/Os and 466 of the 1,400 seats will be taken by west F/Os using the integrated list.

If the NIC is not implemented and ops remain separate, then the east would get all 1,000 seats upgrade instead of the 934 using the NIC. That is a variance of 66 seats or 9% of the 720 eligible east F/Os. Conversely, the west would get 400 left seat upgrades instead of the 466 that would be available under the NIC, a loss of 15% in total upgrades by remaining separate.

So all of this hand-wringing and delayed wage improvements is over 66 seats which negatively effects less than 10 percent of the east F/O population and only 2.5% of the current active east population over a period of nine years. The 97.5% of the active east pilots that are not affected by the seniority list integration at all must be quite committed to the 2.5% who are. Furthermore, it's not like the west wasn't affected negatively by the NIC. The east got the top 517 super seniority status placing the top 517 west pilots well below they east counterparts.

There is no way six to ten years of contract delays is worth what you are doing to protect 66 seat upgrades over nine years. The 2,580 active east pilots who are not affected by the NIC could have easily chipped in to make up the difference for the 66 F/Os in terms of lost potential pay and still be way ahead of the game. Instead you have turned down hundreds of millions of dollars in wage improvements and spent millions in attorney fees to show solidarity with 66 east F/Os. And you lost your integrity and reputation to boot.

So it is worth delaying five years.

 

[CallawayGolf]

So it is worth delaying five years.

Define "worth delaying". If 2,580 active east pilots wanted to help out the 66 who missed an upgrade because of the NIC and decided to give them $50,000 each a year to make up for the lost upgrade it would cost them less than $1,300 a year to make things "right" for these 66 F/Os. Before the east burned all bridges with the west they perhaps could have asked west pilots to chip in too and dropped this down below $700 per pilot so that the integration could happen and a new, higher-paying contract could be attained. How much did each pilot lose each year just based on the Kirby proposal alone? How much do you pay to USAPA each year to do nothing but delay a contract? Heck, did anyone even think to ask Management to give these 66 east pilots a special F/O payrate so that the JCBA could get ratified? At $3.3 million per year as the last and final negotiating point between the union and management, I bet somehting could have been worked out. All parties have spent or lost way more than that with no resolution in sight. Worth waiting for, I think not.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Well nine years is very different than what you were implying about Tempe calculating the costs of the NIC for movement. A lot can happen in nine years to change things.

Nevertheless, I'll use your numbers as fact in the following analysis.

First a summary:
1,000 east captains retiring in nine years
400 west captains retiring in nine years
720 active east F/Os eligible for upgrade
700 active west F/Os eligible for upgrades

That equals 1,400 total movements from right to left seat. The NIC integrates east/west pilots using a 2:1 ratio so 934 of the 1,400 seats will be taken by east F/Os and 466 of the 1,400 seats will be taken by west F/Os using the integrated list.

If the NIC is not implemented and ops remain separate, then the east would get all 1,000 seats upgrade instead of the 934 using the NIC. That is a variance of 66 seats or 9% of the 720 eligible east F/Os. Conversely, the west would get 400 left seat upgrades instead of the 466 that would be available under the NIC, a loss of 15% in total upgrades by remaining separate.

So all of this hand-wringing and delayed wage improvements is over 66 seats which negatively effects less than 10 percent of the east F/O population and only 2.5% of the current active east population over a period of nine years. The 97.5% of the active east pilots that are not affected by the seniority list integration at all must be quite committed to the 2.5% who are. Furthermore, it's not like the west wasn't affected negatively by the NIC. The east got the top 517 super seniority status placing the top 517 west pilots well below they east counterparts.

There is no way six to ten years of contract delays is worth what you are doing to protect 66 seat upgrades over nine years. The 2,580 active east pilots who are not affected by the NIC could have easily chipped in to make up the difference for the 66 F/Os in terms of lost potential pay and still be way ahead of the game. Instead you have turned down hundreds of millions of dollars in wage improvements and spent millions in attorney fees to show solidarity with 66 east F/Os. And you lost your integrity and reputation to boot.

I figure more than the 1000. 1000 assumes every captain goes to 65. Which will not happen.

the 1000 number though would cover all the remaining east f/o's except 520 or so seperate ops. (1780 total retires in 9 including f/o's)

2646 active, 3300 total on list, 3300-1780=1520

under NIC you have 400 west retires. 1000 east capt retires, 1400 spots. 700 west upgrades 608 east upgrades (2 to 1 slotting only goes thru the first 608 current active f/o's of which figure 200 retired before then. so 700 and 408. 1108 seats taken of the 1400.

That leaves about 820 east guys without upgrade in that time instead of 520 under seperate ops.

Other factor that will affect the displacements is once the transition agreement ends under common sen list, the company is free of any base restrictions. One can expect tempe to displace the east coast flying PHX now does to an east base. I don't know the percentages of it, but PHX based crews are running up and down the east coast all the time CLT BOS, etc etc. All the time that does that will most assuredly be moved out of the PHX base. The east routes on the other hand have very little of that type of flying. Most of what we do is transcon, and not local flying. We have just a couple LAS PHX, or SFO PHX, or did. Last "local" phx flight I did was 6 or 8 months ago.

Rough guess? Don't know, maybe a 200 to 300 pilot reduction in PHX base moved to the east and all the suck factor that goes to the poor slobs displaced to a transcon commute. We have plenty of California natives that know all about that from the PSA draw down.

 

[Move2CLT]

Does anyone really think that we will have a contract prior to another merger?

Sounds like you've given up.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I figure more than the 1000. 1000 assumes every captain goes to 65. Which will not happen.

the 1000 number though would cover all the remaining east f/o's except 520 or so seperate ops. (1780 total retires in 9 including f/o's)

2646 active, 3300 total on list, 3300-1780=1520

under NIC you have 400 west retires. 1000 east capt retires, 1400 spots. 700 west upgrades 608 east upgrades (2 to 1 slotting only goes thru the first 608 current active f/o's of which figure 200 retired before then. so 700 and 408. 1108 seats taken of the 1400.

That leaves about 820 east guys without upgrade in that time instead of 520 under seperate ops.

Other factor that will affect the displacements is once the transition agreement ends under common sen list, the company is free of any base restrictions. One can expect tempe to displace the east coast flying PHX now does to an east base. I don't know the percentages of it, but PHX based crews are running up and down the east coast all the time CLT BOS, etc etc. All the time that does that will most assuredly be moved out of the PHX base. The east routes on the other hand have very little of that type of flying. Most of what we do is transcon, and not local flying. We have just a couple LAS PHX, or SFO PHX, or did. Last "local" phx flight I did was 6 or 8 months ago.

Rough guess? Don't know, maybe a 200 to 300 pilot reduction in PHX base moved to the east and all the suck factor that goes to the poor slobs displaced to a transcon commute. We have plenty of California natives that know all about that from the PSA draw down.

I was only using the numbers you provided. The SLI award used the 2:1 ratio down through the lowest active pilot on each list. If you are seeing a different ratio at the bottom its because you are trying to mix furloughs in so that they get an upgrade before active west pilots. This not only alters already favorable east 2:1 ratio established by the Award but it also to violate the agreements concerning where furloughs are placed related to actively serving pilots. Still, I'm not sure how you come up with any other number than taking the 1400 left seat retirements and seeing 934 going east and 466 going west when using the NIC, until you run out of junior west pilots that is.

 

[Keroseneuser]

I was only using the numbers you provided. The SLI award used the 2:1 ratio down through the lowest active pilot on each list. If you are seeing a different ratio at the bottom its because you are trying to mix furloughs in so that they get an upgrade before active west pilots. This not only alters already favorable east 2:1 ratio established by the Award but it also to violate the agreements concerning where furloughs are placed related to actively serving pilots. Still, I'm not sure how you come up with any other number than taking the 1400 left seat retirements and seeing 934 going east and 466 going west when using the NIC, until you run out of junior west pilots that is.

Again we are talking about getting something ratified with NIC in it. No matter how you slice it, when it comes to a NIC ratification all the pilots will get a vote, newhires included.

So all we are really talking about is NIC vs Seperate ops. The guys that still get their upgrade under NIC will vote primairly on pay with secondary thoughts on how nic would effect their position (reserve?, commute?, widebody?, upgrade time? etc) The guys left out of the slotting (824 at present time, growing with each newhire class hired) will vote I suspect primairly on upgrade with secondary on pay.

If the pay is high enough, all will vote on pay. This is tempe we are talking about though, so I figure that is not going to be the case.

The real kicker is, every newhire that is placed on the east kinda has super seniority from day one IF this thing stays seperate ops. the longer it goes seperate ops the more the newguys will NOT want to see a combined list since they will all the sudden have all the west pilots to bid against that they currently don't. Just another clump of mud in the water to cloud things up.

 

[Claxon]

Has money ever slowed down AOL? No. They are flushed with cash and will fight the scabs at every opportunity. I'd be more concerned with USAPAS financial situation right now...did you see when they removed the prohibition of deficit spending a few weeks ago? Guess what that means? If the west stopped paying en masse, USAPA would be BK in a matter of weeks.

Then Parker will have to fire the western criminals en masse as required by law. Adios and good riddance to the scourge of the industry. AMF.

 

[Claxon]

Funny how USAPA vigorously opposed class certification and now they find it advantageous.

Theur has become quite proficient at talking out of his ass.

Maybe he should start asking his mom to try to get him another job

Theuer got the western in USAPA. That is enough to get him sainted.

 

[Claxon]

Due to the overwhelming success of Leonidas' legal campaign against our attempt to impose DOH on the west, we have approved deficient spending.

We have also formed an exploratory committee to determine how much of an assessment is needed to cover our costs going forward.

Remember, trying to screw the west isn't free.

Sincerely,

Mike Cleary and his merry men.

Screwing a bunch of criminals is worth every penny. Franke himself would be proud of the reverse karma after Ansett.

 

[Claxon]

I was only using the numbers you provided. The SLI award used the 2:1 ratio down through the lowest active pilot on each list. If you are seeing a different ratio at the bottom its because you are trying to mix furloughs in so that they get an upgrade before active west pilots. This not only alters already favorable east 2:1 ratio established by the Award but it also to violate the agreements concerning where furloughs are placed related to actively serving pilots. Still, I'm not sure how you come up with any other number than taking the 1400 left seat retirements and seeing 934 going east and 466 going west when using the NIC, until you run out of junior west pilots that is.

The Franke manager has all the ideas. Too bad his airline is one of the least admired companies in the world. His ideas are worthless.

 

[nevergiveup]

Sounds like you've given up.

rr...humor

 

[USA320Pilot]

A Compass Correction Coalition Update: November 3, 2011

Dear USAPA: when you find yourselves in a hole…
Stop Digging.

PHL Vice Chairman Mike Gillies – in the hole

Fellow Pilots,

Here is a short and sweet Compass Correction for you pilots out there, who still give a damn:

Two recent Domicile Updates from USAPA, one from CLT and later, the same one from PHL have this in common; Mike Gillies, PHL Vice Chairman, penned the update. Technically, therefore it really isn’t a CLT Update; rather it is a propaganda piece, filled with distortions and short on facts. It was published in a wholly failed attempt to “explain” why the President of USAPA fired the Seham legal team, without consultation, or prior approval from the Board of Pilot Representatives.

You can read the referenced USAPA update and judge for yourselves its validity, in light of the plagiarism, and some of the following points to ponder:

1. If this is an audit and “investigation” of the billing practices of the Seham law firm, (and supposedly, all law firms retained by USAPA) - why would Cleary fire the Seham firm, before the audit and the investigation of their practices is complete?

2. Why did Cleary fire the Seham law firm on October 3rd, the day BEFORE the start of the Fall BPR meeting, thereby conveniently ruling out consultation with the Board?

3. If there is a problem with the “billing practices” of multiple law firms, who then decides that the law firm hired to audit the other law firms aren’t themselves guilty of billing irregularities? USAPA alone is responsible to audit its contractors; but as usual, Cleary is lazy and prefers to shift responsibilities and the work load to others; specifically those who will not question his motives, ever.

4. Gillies, in his update actually accuses the Seham law firm of “stonewalling”. Yet, in the same update, Gillies contradicts himself. Here follows a sentence, written by Gillies in that update: “They (Seham law firm) - have, as required, agreed to transfer them to another law firm as necessary.” So which is it, stonewallers or cooperators? Gillies writes that it would be “naïve” to think that a law firm couldn’t over bill, simply by padding their hours, even if the hourly rate is lower. Well, speaking of naïve, who would expect cheerful cooperation with USAPA, once they have stopped paying their attorneys and commenced bad-mouthing them? Oh, and just for the record, Seham and his firm are cheerfully cooperating; ask your PHL Reps. if ANY of the other many lawyers and firms we retain have yet been audited?

5. In these “updates” Gillies reports that the alleged “billing irregularities” were discovered in August, 2011 and that is what leads to the firing of the Seham law firm. However, the O’Dwyer firm had already taken the lead in suing US Airways in Federal Court in New York back in May of 2011. Somebody at USAPA must be clairvoyant!

In fact what really happened is this: Cleary initiated the New York based lawsuit against management, despite the fact that this ill advised and demonstrably counterproductive action was never endorsed by Seham, in fact there is evidence that Seham was never aware of the lawsuit until after it became public. Frankly this lawsuit weakens our claims in the Phoenix court action……stupid, stupid, stupid; and arrogantly classic Cleary; (listen to no one who disagrees)

Finally, mixed in this unwholesome stew of intrigue is the departure from Seham’s firm of one of his attorneys; a female. This lady-lawyer had moved in with our USAPA Vice President Randy Mowrey. Her conflict of interest was dealt with by Seham in an appropriate manner; she left the firm. The lady-lawyer then wooed USAPA into a relationship with some old pals at Another Law firm. That law firm is....... wait for it, yes, you guessed it, our new best lawyers.... O’Dwyer and Berstein! Seems she’s figured out how to turn her conflict of interest problem into a new paycheck from O’Dwyer; clever.

What level of loyalty and honor might USAPA expect from such an opportunist, should she suffer another reversal of fortune? You really can’t make these stories up. Truth is more fantastical than fantasy, where Cleary is involved.

The intrigue may not end here, seems another Office Romance is blossoming. Apparently there must not be enough Union work to keep Cleary’s boys on task.

Ladies and Gentlemen; is this what you imagined, when you voted for an independent union?

Fraternally,

Woody Menear
PHL B767

Eric Rowe
PHL AB 330

O'Dwyer & Bernstein, LLP

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Where’s the RLA experience, Uh?

 

[SparrowHawk]

The Franke manager has all the ideas. Too bad his airline is one of the least admired companies in the world. His ideas are worthless.

OH and US Airways had a stellar reputation pre-merger? Funny I must have missed the list of awards.

Does it bother you that Bill Franke is now Chairman of the Board of Spirit Airlines? Who in case you haven't noticed is both profitable and their pilot pay scale is slightly better at the top than yours is?

Oh and before I forget where's apollo?