US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Keroseneuser]

Having expectations that far out is one thing, wanting them guaranteed and paid for by a group that had nothing to do with the wrong turn east careers took prior to the merger is something else. You want to effectively stop west upgrades for 10 years or so to give new-hires a shot at upgrading somewhere down the road...and call that fair.

Jim

I am not arguing the legal side of this. I am simply looking at the challenges a NIC T/A would have to be voted in.

The last bid that came out had 40 new captains on it(NOV bid). If we did a nick vote tomorrow how do you suppose they would vote? In all likelyhood under NIC they would get bumped back to f/o. or off the widebody.

That is 40 upgrades a full 13 months before we are "supposed" to be seeing any retirement movement. Personally I think the retirement numbers I have posted are low. There are a lot of guys out there that don't want to go to 65, and a lot that quite frankly abused their bodies or have heart related issues that wont be able to hold a first class medical to 65.

As to your fair comment......Really? When it comes time to vote, every single pilot east and west will be voting for one thing, what is best for them, or what they think is best for them. that is human nature, always has been always will be.

For me, I know how many NIC would put above me, I know how long I have left to 65, When the vote rolls around at some as yet undetermined future date I will look at the current conditions on the seniority list and the retirements, what the company is offering compared to what my best estimate would be as seperate ops and then decide how to vote. Just like the other 4700 pilots will be doing east and west.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The last bid that came out had 40 new captains on it(NOV bid).

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Bid 11-05 (Dec, not Nov BTW) had 5 new captain openings on it with a reduction of 5 widebody captains. You can't just look at the results and count the "N" and "DN" captains since most of them are base and/or equipment changes.

Jim

 

[Keroseneuser]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Bid 11-05 had 5 new captain positions on it with a reduction of 5 widebody captains. You can't just look at the results and count the "N" and "DN" captains since most of them are base and/or equipment changes.

Jim

Yes I am aware of that. When I stated upgrades I looked after posting and figured you were going to call me on the terminology I used.

Maybe a better statement would have been 40 new positions since it is safe to assume that the 40 didnt bid down to a less desirable position.

The 5 down grades from the widebodies would indeed show as NEW on where ever they went to.

There is movement on this bid Up to the 330 also. I do know one fellow that was caught by surprise on the bid. He got the 330 and ended up going from Blockholding Capt on the 320 to reserve on the 330. Said he needed to go find somebody on reserve to try to pick their brain on how the new system worked since he had not been reserve in 15 years. 🙂

 

[noDOH4u]

Oh and before I forget where's apollo?

I heard he was banned for his behavior.

Lets ask luvthe9...

Hey luv, where's your hero?

Apollo? banished? I don't think so. I am sure he will be back.

 

[doh nogo]

This whole "stand alone" and "keep our attrition" thing never made any sense, and was ignored when I brought it up. If the west brings 1/3 of the seats, and we bring 2/3 of the seats, and the arbitrated award gives us 2/3 of the upgrades, then it seems to me that we DO keep our attrition. Anything else just wreaks of "we want it all until we are good and ready to let you have yours." We all know the ups and downs we've had in our history and the sacrifices we made along the way. But the idea that our west counterparts must pay for our misfortune with their good fortune never sat right with me.

Great post. From an east pilot no less.

I'd love to hear a response to your question. But they all go silent.

 

[aquagreen73s]

This whole "stand alone" and "keep our attrition" thing never made any sense, and was ignored when I brought it up. If the west brings 1/3 of the seats, and we bring 2/3 of the seats, and the arbitrated award gives us 2/3 of the upgrades, then it seems to me that we DO keep our attrition. Anything else just wreaks of "we want it all until we are good and ready to let you have yours." We all know the ups and downs we've had in our history and the sacrifices we made along the way. But the idea that our west counterparts must pay for our misfortune with their good fortune never sat right with me.

Lets not forget that many of our retirements will come from the right seat and create little movement and no financial benefit for anyone. Separate ops also does not account for the fact that we are no longer separate airlines. Assets are now moved where they make the most sense. Part of the benefit was that our previously unprofitable flying was made profitable by the macro economics of the merger, such as additional feed from the west among other things. Costs have been diluted making some west flying less profitable and some east flying more profitable. Have you all forgotten that we were not solvent at the time?

This will go on in court until our union runs out of gamesmanship or money. IMO there is enough dissension in the ranks to pass a contract and move on, when one is finally presented for a vote. The only other option I see is ANOTHER new union, barring all previous ALPA and USAPA officers from office, presenting a DFR free, Nic inclusive contract. That COULD happen after Kasher's decision is released.

Honest question: did you receive a Leonidas brochure and if so, did you find the information useful?

 

[Move2CLT]

This was Brookman's opinion on LOA93 and in an email to the pilots, persuading them to vote against LOA93 as a whole. John is sharp, but not an attorney.

I think Cpt Butkovics opinion holds much more merit, which deals with technical details of legal proceedures.

So, CM.....will you accept your back pay and pay raise if the pilots win the LOA 93 grievance, since you seem to think it is ethlicly wrong? please answer the question.

breeze

Butkovic's opinion holds more merit because it fits in with your wishful thinking. If it was Brookman who said LOA93 was a winner, you'd be touting his opinion.

And Don H. refused to perger himself when asked about snapbacks. He knew there were none and that it was never negotiated.

So you have Don and John against Don. Two v one.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Maybe a better statement would have been 40 new positions since it is safe to assume that the 40 didnt bid down to a less desirable position.

Another way of saying exactly the same as you said before. There are only 5 vacancies on the bid, call them new positions or whatever but there are still just 5. No, 40 didn't voluntarily bid to a less desirable position for them, although you might see it as less desirable for you. Changing bases, bidding different equipment to get off reserve, whatever, every "N" captain voluntarily bid a position they considered more desirable. The "DN" captains displaced to presumably less desirable positions although nothing prevents a pilot from displacing to a more favorable position - more favorable for them.

As I've said before, in theory you could have absolutely no changes in a bid - just one reserve 190 FO vacancy - and every pilot could end up moving because of that one vacancy. So whatever the number of line captains, that many captains would have "N" beside their name but there were no new captain positions available. Conversely, in theory you could have the same no changes except for 1 A330 captain vacancy and no one would move - a west furloughee would have a chance to fill that A330 captain vacancy. So no east pilot would be a "N" captain although there was an open captain position.

I can't be clearer - bid 11-05 only had 5 new captain positions, captain vacancies, whatever you want to call it. The fact that 40 captains had "N" beside their name on the award is just the way the bid works, it does NOT mean that there were that many new captain jobs.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

So you have Don and John against Don. Two v one.

Don's "legal technicalities" involves nothing more than saying that there is a snapback without using that word.

Jim

 

[Keroseneuser]

Another way of saying exactly the same as you said before.

Jim

I guess it was a poor choice of words to convey my thought. I was trying to make the point that no matter how a court would look at something, or how somebody may feel about being "fair". That when it comes time for a vote each pilot will look to his own status and how said vote might affect his status. I.E. Will this bump me from my seat, base, line? Will it make me commute? will this slow my upgrade etc.

No matter how a court/outsider/girlfriend/wife/neighbor, might see it. They will still vote what they think is best for them and their situation.


I just don't think Tempe has any interest in us being one list. The longer this goes on the better it is for them.


A more productive use of our time might be to try to secure a joint contract with seperate lists for the time being until the inevitable court battle can be fought. That way the west keeps their fleet mins and attrition, as does the east. No NIC, No DOH. The PBS/insurance/pay/retirement issues might could be worked out and in a few years maybe enough will be retired to finally figure something out on the combined list.

Will take that long to fight it out anyhow. It's never been done that I know of, but then again, what we have to this point has never been done either! :blink:

Eh, who am I kidding, no way in hades these two groups are ever going to agree on anything, much less be able to pull that off :0

Guess we will find out all these questions after the laywers have all gone home and all the appeals are exhausted! 🙂

Will be interesting to come back on here several years from now when its all done and see who had the best crystal ball.

 

[Move2CLT]

The company already stated that for one contract there can only be one list.

Give it up.

You're stuck on LOA93 until you figure it out.

 

[Keroseneuser]

The company already stated that for one contract there can only be one list.

Give it up.

You're stuck on LOA93 until you figure it out.

And the west is stuck with the stagnation as well.

Looks like somewhere around 200 east pilots will get a raise each year for the next 10 years, and about 50 west pilots each year during the same period.

That extra 16 bucks an hour the west captains get over the east and the extra 8 bucks the f/o's get sure is a wad of money.....Boy bet I could buy a real nice used civic with that! 😀

 

[BoeingBoy]

Looks like somewhere around 200 east pilots will get a raise each year for the next 10 years, and about 50 west pilots each year during the same period.

That extra 16 bucks an hour the west captains get over the east and the extra 8 bucks the f/o's get sure is a wad of money.....Boy bet I could buy a real nice used civic with that! 😀

Your numbers are off - the 200 has to include FO's moving to higher paying equipment since there aren't that many retirements that will leave a captain vacancy if you average out the next 10 years. Or even the 10 years starting in 2013 once people start reaching 65.

Assuming the 200 is accurate including FO's for the next 10 years - most of the east pilots are on the same equipment (737/A320) so it may be high, what you seem to be missing is that only those 200 would get a raise in any average year. Half would take 5 -10 years to get a raise. 10% would take 10 years from now to get a raise. While that raise would be bigger for some, they're giving up a raise for a number of years that would come with a single contract. For many, the raise sooner would be better than waiting when you look at the numbers - 10 years @ even an extra $10K/year (low for an average) vs a few years of at most $30-40K/year. For those bottom 800+ you think are guaranteed no votes on a Nic contract, voting for a new contract is a no-brainer - they're gonna be FO's for at least the next 10 years anyway so why give up $100K or more that even just parity with the west would give? Besides, anyone thinking that separate ops will still be in effect in 10 or more years is dreaming. US could be in bankruptcy with an imposed single contract, gone, merged, whatever long before that.

Jim

 

[Move2CLT]

And the west is stuck with the stagnation as well.

Looks like somewhere around 200 east pilots will get a raise each year for the next 10 years, and about 50 west pilots each year during the same period.

That extra 16 bucks an hour the west captains get over the east and the extra 8 bucks the f/o's get sure is a wad of money.....Boy bet I could buy a real nice used civic with that! 😀

In addition to what Jim added, how about those work rules you'll still be working under? Vacation? And with those upgrades going right to reserve, I'm sure that's going to suck as I've heard reserve is pretty bad.

Industry leading sections in our contract and I have to bid 30 days of vacation. How many do you get to bid?

And I enjoy watching you inflate all those numbers. It makes me laugh.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Said he needed to go find somebody on reserve to try to pick their brain on how the new system worked since he had not been reserve in 15 years. 🙂

It's a piece of cake. If you live in the crew room.