US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

And the west is stuck with the stagnation as well.

Looks like somewhere around 200 east pilots will get a raise each year for the next 10 years, and about 50 west pilots each year during the same period.

That extra 16 bucks an hour the west captains get over the east and the extra 8 bucks the f/o's get sure is a wad of money.....Boy bet I could buy a real nice used civic with that! 😀

Here is your problem. Thinking like an F/O. So you think that 200 a year will get a raise. What about the captains? Before you going throwing your "huge" WB fleet at us. There are only 279 WB captain slots. Not all of the attrition comes from there. I will give you 20% so 55 per year captains will be able to get a raise. The rest is F/O's to captain.

What do the NB captains get out of this? What does any WB captain get out of watching the F/O's upgrade? They get to keep making $125 per hour while they retire and watch a few F/O's upgrade.

$85-$125 for a few east F/O's
$92-$145 for west F/O's.

New contract

$85- $105? ALL east F/O's
$92- $105? ALL west F?O's

$124- $175? ALL east captains NB
$145- $175? ALL west captain NB

$160- $200? WB captains

You can think small and like a selfish F/O just trying to get yours or think big picture. Eventually the captains are going to sit in their house and figure out what is best for them and their family and staying on 2003 BK wages until they retire just so 20 more east F/O's a year can upgrade is not going to last forever.

 

[eastcoast]

Honest question: did you receive a Leonidas brochure and if so, did you find the information useful?

Yes I did receive it. Useful is a relative term. I read everything with an open mind. But my mind was already pretty much set before before that. So less useful and more interesting than anything else. For me this has less to do with all the supporting data and more with the rumor, speculation, hysteria, and integrity (or lack thereof). IMO nic would not be as devastating as some believe, we keep our attrition at a reasonable 2/3, and it would have been a benefit to ALL involved to have had a better contract and more money had we moved forward after arbitration. Bottom line, my internal cost/benefit ratio tells me we have lost far more in benefit than the arbitrated award would have cost anyone in reality.

Could we have gotten more? Sure. IF we had gone in with better ideas, less ego and more reasonable expectations considering the circumstances of the time. Could we have gotten a better contract than what we can realistically attain now? Yup. But we can't change the past, only the future.

 

[Claxon]

OH and US Airways had a stellar reputation pre-merger? Funny I must have missed the list of awards.

Does it bother you that Bill Franke is now Chairman of the Board of Spirit Airlines? Who in case you haven't noticed is both profitable and their pilot pay scale is slightly better at the top than yours is?

Oh and before I forget where's apollo?

Did you notice Franke took the Spirit pilots to the brink, and over to a strike? How many strikes have there been in the industry in the past ten years? Spirit is the only one that comes to mind, and Franke was at the helm. Doing what he does best. Pushing labor to the brink and over it. Their pay scale is only because their group was cohesive, and fought off the scabs who flew very few flights. Franke again, employed scabs. He uses them often when he is running an airline. This is the second time. He needs to come back and help Parker with his Franke Air legacy. He has a willing group again to do his bidding. Your admiration of him is telling. One would think you would admire Herb Kelleher more.

 

[Claxon]

Honest question: did you receive a Leonidas brochure and if so, did you find the information useful?

When is the next western propaganda being sent? When the arbitrator rules for the eastern group, will you still send the brochures with the illegally obtained addresses?

 

[SparrowHawk]

Did you notice Franke took the Spirit pilots to the brink, and over to a strike? How many strikes have there been in the industry in the past ten years? Spirit is the only one that comes to mind, and Franke was at the helm. Doing what he does best. Pushing labor to the brink and over it. Their pay scale is only because their group was cohesive, and fought off the scabs who flew very few flights. Franke again, employed scabs. He uses them often when he is running an airline. This is the second time. He needs to come back and help Parker with his Franke Air legacy. He has a willing group again to do his bidding. Your admiration of him is telling. One would think you would admire Herb Kelleher more.

Never said I admired him. Just pointing out the facts in the case. Big Deal, he had a pilots strike. So what! Bottom line is the airline made nearly as much in profit as US did last quarter and it's a tenth of the size with pilots who get paid as much as US Airways AND they're growing!

I admire Spirit and our friends B. Ben Baldanza and Barry Biffle aka "The Killer B's" who actually run the place. These two gentlemen took Spirit from somewhat of an industry joke, to a very nice little well run airline. Maybe if they had stayed at the New US Airways the company would have put up better numbers. But DP & SK know it all (At least in their minds) so now they do their own thing and have actually turned Spirit into a brand that is recognized in the markets they serve.

This is the difference between two guys who are dyed in the wool airline guys versus two opportunists looking for a big payday. This is why one airline had a few day strike and moved on, while the other has been mired in a profit robbing 6 year struggle with Labor AND no Bill Franke in sight on their board of Directors

On a side note Bill Franke isn't involved in the day to day operations at Spirit. He is merely Chairman of the Board as he is one about 5 other airline investments his company has made.

Also where's your Homie apollo? he's looking a bit cowardly these days

 

[luvthe9]

Never said I admired him. Just pointing out the facts in the case. Big Deal, he had a pilots strike. So what! Bottom line is the airline made nearly as much in profit as US did last quarter and it's a tenth of the size with pilots who get paid as much as US Airways AND they're growing!

I admire Spirit and our friends B. Ben Baldanza and Barry Biffle aka "The Killer B's" who actually run the place. These two gentlemen took Spirit from somewhat of an industry joke, to a very nice little well run airline. Maybe if they had stayed at the New US Airways the company would have put up better numbers. But DP & SK know it all (At least in their minds) so now they do their own thing and have actually turned Spirit into a brand that is recognized in the markets they serve.

This is the difference between two guys who are dyed in the wool airline guys versus two opportunists looking for a big payday. This is why one airline had a few day strike and moved on, while the other has been mired in a profit robbing 6 year struggle with Labor AND no Bill Franke in sight on their board of Directors

On a side note Bill Franke isn't involved in the day to day operations at Spirit. He is merely Chairman of the Board as he is one about 5 other airline investments his company has made.

Also where's your Homie apollo? he's looking a bit cowardly these days

I think Jetzz said with some inside information that Apollo was banned. Ask him, he talks to the moderators all the time about such 😀

 

[crazystnic]

Here is your problem. Thinking like an F/O. So you think that 200 a year will get a raise. What about the captains? Before you going throwing your "huge" WB fleet at us. There are only 279 WB captain slots. Not all of the attrition comes from there. I will give you 20% so 55 per year captains will be able to get a raise. The rest is F/O's to captain.

What do the NB captains get out of this? What does any WB captain get out of watching the F/O's upgrade? They get to keep making $125 per hour while they retire and watch a few F/O's upgrade.

$85-$125 for a few east F/O's
$92-$145 for west F/O's.

New contract

$85- $105? ALL east F/O's
$92- $105? ALL west F?O's

$124- $175? ALL east captains NB
$145- $175? ALL west captain NB

$160- $200? WB captains

You can think small and like a selfish F/O just trying to get yours or think big picture. Eventually the captains are going to sit in their house and figure out what is best for them and their family and staying on 2003 BK wages until they retire just so 20 more east F/O's a year can upgrade is not going to last forever.

Those are not the rates or anythig near the rates on the table.
sorry

 

[traderjake]

Another week gone by an still no LOA 93 decision.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

 

[fodase]

Another week gone by an still no LOA93 decision.

Insane really, I wonder if it will come out this year?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Those are not the rates or anythig near the rates on the table.
sorry

They're not far off east rates with a LOA 93 grievance win though - actually very close when counting the two 3% raises since 1/1/2010 USAPA says are due. Are you saying that the NC is asking for less than the "guaranteed" grievance win will pay? Or lots more? Or just that the NC is so busy keeping the Nic at bay that they haven't put pay rates on the table....

Jim

 

[icehead]

$85-$125 for a few east F/O's
$92-$145 for west F/O's.

New contract

$85- $105? ALL east F/O's
$92- $105? ALL west F?O's

$124- $175? ALL east captains NB
$145- $175? ALL west captain NB

$160- $200? WB captains

You can think small and like a selfish F/O just trying to get yours or think big picture. Eventually the captains are going to sit in their house and figure out what is best for them and their family and staying on 2003 BK wages until they retire just so 20 more east F/O's a year can upgrade is not going to last forever.
[/quote]
I am all in favor of thinking big but Kero has the handle as most of us do regarding who we work for. Richard Anderson of Delta thinks big in a frail industry. Steve Jobs thought big, and took big risks. But he was Steve Jobs and Apple charged more, go figure. At USAirways contracted labor are place holders, unfortunate but necessary debits on a balance sheet. I am not buying your Pay rate forecast. The stakeholders have been advised of the negative effects of a pay restoration win, albeit unlikely. Of course I hope I am wrong. I assume its a required acknowledgment of potential risk but it also serves more than one purpose. I have no idea what would follow with a pay win but I would expect something unforeseen. LOA 93 res pay rates are in your foretasted pay range. Would not the company be irresponsible to allow the very rates which you forecast to become a reality. Boatloads of hyperbole and vitriol have been spewed on these boards, it means nothing and accounts for nothing. Your pay rates are unattainable if the hatchet is not buried. I know who I work for.... My pay small or large validates nothing.

 

[mikey60]

The company already stated that for one contract there can only be one list.

Give it up.

You're stuck on LOA93 until you figure it out.

If were stuck with 93 then your stuck with the worst contract in aviation.....hahaha

 

[nic4us]

Insane really, I wonder if it will come out this year?

The usapa update from the grievence committee said no preliminary decision had been release, and once it is, that the parties would be given a shot at executive session, prior to release of the final award.

So..I am thinking, probably not this year...unless the grievence chair is not being truthful on the current status. Only 50 days til Christmas, and who wants all these people to have to work during the holiday season?

 

[Boeing Driver]

This whole "stand alone" and "keep our attrition" thing never made any sense, and was ignored when I brought it up. If the west brings 1/3 of the seats, and we bring 2/3 of the seats, and the arbitrated award gives us 2/3 of the upgrades, then it seems to me that we DO keep our attrition. Anything else just wreaks of "we want it all until we are good and ready to let you have yours." We all know the ups and downs we've had in our history and the sacrifices we made along the way. But the idea that our west counterparts must pay for our misfortune with their good fortune never sat right with me.

This is exactly why we are in the mess we are; typical fuzzy math by the AWA lowlifes and their cheerleaders.

1/3 of the seats BUT only 1/4 of the attrition. And those extra jobs that they are trying so very hard to steal come directly from US Airways east pilots.

And this is why we are headed inexorably to a war in the cockpit...

Boeing Driver

 

[Move2CLT]

And this is why we are headed inexorably to a war in the cockpit...

Boeing Driver

Which, like usual, you will inexorably lose. Don't let my Capt foot hit your FO ass on the way out of my Airbus flight deck.