US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

Isn't that how a democratic society is suppose to work?

Not when it harms the minority.

And that's why DOH is dead.

And that's why the US is a Republic.

 

[luvn737s]

Isn't that how a democratic society is suppose to work?

Do you think you live in one? 7th grade civics is calling.

 

[luvn737s]

Over here a straight vote on Nic would probably have 95+% West approving and 95+% East rejecting and obviously a problem.

Probably? Why aren't the easties demanding a vote so that any doubt can be erased?

If NIC is voted down (and remember, the guys selling the NO votes on the east are the same ones who have extracted money and produced nothing) then you might see the whole process expedited. A judge would see that the pilots are really trying to solve this themselves and may get involved as little as necessary to keep the momentum.

Why do you continue to let one man cause so much damage?

 

[Injunction junction]

What is even funnier is the position your in, your contract can be sold to anyone, what makes you think the financial community would invite the "WEST CONTRACTS" TO the party , CLUELESS! Your correct your assets are that of TWA!

Ahhh words from the great profit Michel de Nostredame! One thing in this world is certainty and that is you have no idea how business works. The west contract though far better than what you work under today is still substandard and the FINANCIAL COMMUNITY that you speak of sees this. That community wants a deal done that will pay THEM, which means tossing you a bone in the process is vital to THEIR SUCCESS. Now the size of that bone is the question. The smart play in that would be to give you AA pay and benefits that will be mind you frozen by bankruptcy. The pilots here get a huge raise and far better work rules with the promise (LIE) that when the combined company is profitable it will filter down to the worker bees.

Now as for seniority lists, you can best believe that APA will not adopt DOH to combine the lists. They will certainly state that you usair people have a list that was done in arbitration and that is the list we will use to combine our lists. APA like you in the east was very greedy when they got with TWA and like most greedy people they got burned in the end. The east has been told countless times that the nic award would not have hurt them at all but like most pilots its all about me, me, me! I have NEVER in my life seen a group of people that screams about fairness and much as the east then thinks that fair is stapling 98% of the west to the bottom of a list is fair. 🙄 That's not fair, its GREEDY.

Injunction followed by LOA93 loss then DJ stating we can not hold harmless usairways. Mark my words.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Isn't that how a democratic society is suppose to work?

Except that we don't live in a democratic society. We live in a system where representatives of the people vote and make decisions based on holding political office, not by taking a vote of the majority. The Constitution and the general rule of law carry more weight and authority than what the will of the people may be at any given point in time. Not even the President of the US is voted in by a direct majority of the people. Instead we elect members to the electoral college who have the authority to cast votes for the office of the President. Furthermore, the Constitution makes no provisions for a majority vote of the people on anything, including a constitutional amendment. If the people want to see the Constitution changed, that requires their elected federal and state representatives to provide super-majority ratification votes in order for an amendment to become constitutional law. As a US citizen you don't get to directly vote for the President, a constitutional amendment, or any single law that is enacted. That's why it is called a Representative Republic and not a democracy.

I haven't done the research, but I can't think of a single nation or organization other than a sole proprietorship that is run by purely democratic or majority rules functions. There is nearly always a C&BL, with an appointed or elected head as well as a governing body which dictates how decisions become policy or law. The reason for this is simple, a pure democracy or majority rules environment would fail being governed only by mob rule rather than an objective standard for a well-functioning organization.

 

[Injunction junction]

Just a hint, they don't want the west nor does anybody else all the money made is east. And yes you will get your "due".

Its interesting how you think. I have been reading you garbage for years and its nothing more than your hoping things go your way. There is no carve up in a merger my man its an all or nothing deal. I know you cant think past your own ideas and greed but try to think of the multi million dollar law suit that would follow a company that decided to take only half ( the non profitable job action half) at that. Corp counsel thinks in terms of risk vs reward and the risk there is far too great. Now what I can see is that a merger would take place and a combined lists is put together then base closures take place in order to make the whole profitable. The new company wont need Phoenix when you have LA, they wont need PHL when you have NY. Take off that greedy east suit you're wearing and TRY to be logical. Big picture, get it??

Injunction killed ya

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Probably? Why aren't the easties demanding a vote so that any doubt can be erased?

Why aren't the west pilots "demanding" a vote? Are they afraid their minority is a lot smaller than they would like others to think?

There is nothing worse than the tyranny of a minority, also known as an oligarchy, monarchy or just plain dictatorship.

What is sad is that the west, in lieu of waiting five years, has prolonged a merger indefinitely ("We want it now, and ... "). The structure the "west" constructed (and I mean the west minority that is driving this) will now work against any merger.

The majority of pilots voted in USAPA which gives the west pilots a better chance of a merger over the ALPA "solution", yet, in their own myopia, the west "drivers" cannot or will not see that. Perhaps they cannot admit they screwed up big time, denying their "own" pay raises and seat vacancies, basically, forever.

I would consider a merged contract including the nicholau (even though I am not affected) only if pilots with fifteen or more years longevity and there being no vacancy in the left seat, get no less than captain's pay (They ought to get paid extra for baby-sitting some of these captain wanna-bes).

 

[Injunction junction]

I find little if any real similarity in the two transactions, but I will play the game.

Both transactions have a smaller group with poor scope negotiated by ALPA merging ( or whatever) with a larger independent union with outstanding scope. The rank and file accept the conditions of the larger group in order to move on and get better working conditions. If PHX, CLT, DCA, or PHL is spun off in the next 4 way (yes, 4 way) any group could find itself in a similar dilemma. Although PHX is going to enter the fray with little or no scope.

RR

Wow, no one will EVER accuse you of being intelligent

Injunction

 

[Move2CLT]

Why aren't the west pilots "demanding" a vote? Are they afraid their minority is a lot smaller than they would like others to think?

There is nothing worse than the tyranny of a minority, also known as an oligarchy, monarchy or just plain dictatorship.

What is sad is that the west, in lieu of waiting five years, has prolonged a merger indefinitely ("We want it now, and ... "). The structure the "west" constructed (and I mean the west minority that is driving this) will now work against any merger.

The majority of pilots voted in USAPA which gives the west pilots a better chance of a merger over the ALPA "solution", yet, in their own myopia, the west "drivers" cannot or will not see that. Perhaps they cannot admit they screwed up big time, denying their "own" pay raises and seat vacancies, basically, forever.

I would consider a merged contract including the nicholau (even though I am not affected) only if pilots with fifteen or more years longevity and there being no vacancy in the left seat, get no less than captain's pay (They ought to get paid extra for baby-sitting some of these captain wanna-bes).

There is no tyranny of the minority. Were women tyrants when they sought suffrage? African Americans?

No, you're clueless and you're distorting reality to fit your little paradigm.

The west pilots have put many resolutions on the table only to be ignored, delayed, and berated. Your "majority" can't even keep Cleary in check. He's managed to vilify all the founding members of USAPA as well as the architect of your legal claim to DOH. Bradford, King, Seham, DC, ER - all enemies of Cleary and, apparently, USAPA.

We've fought for the protection of the Nic and we've achieved that goal. But in the east's own myopia, they cannot see that their fight against the Nic is quickly coming to an end. And to compound their myopia, their tunnel vision doesn't allow them to see they've been on LOA 93 and will remain their indefinitely.

The east had ample opportunity to inject conditions and restrictions during arbitration. They refused.

And good luck getting that last demand. Why don't you beg for it at the next crew news.

 

[Barrister]

Never;
I don't quite understand why I would need Xanax. I don't take any prescription medication. All I know is that Xanax is some sort of anti-anxiety medication. Here's the actual information:

Alprazolam (Xanax) is used to treat anxiety disorders and panic disorder (sudden, unexpected attacks of extreme fear and worry about these attacks). Alprazolam is in a class of medications called benzodiazepines. It works by decreasing abnormal excitement in the brain.

I don't have any sudden or unexpected attacks of extreme fear or worry of of such attacks. I am a normal well balanced American male. I have a great family & family life. I still enjoy & fly little airplanes as often as I can. I eat lots of fiber and exercise, and I support Leonidas the the greatest financial ability that I can.

Speaking of anxiety, panic & fear....do you suppose luvthe9, Claxon/Sumadarson/Nostrodomus/Apollo, & MM might need to seek this kind of medication? Some of the recent posts from these gentlemen have reeked of desperation.

My my aren't you special.......it has been 6 years....might take another 4-5....we are fine out east. Enjoy your stagnation.
You earned it!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[767jetz]

There are so many things wrong with this post it would take to long to correct. Really not worth wasting my time. Besides you east guys never let facts get in the way of a good falsehood.

BINGO!

Complete fabrication either by him or whomever gave him his info. Especially the part about integrating only 1500 east pilots and reducing the number of pilots that could work for UA. Total BS. I went to every road show about the proposed pre-nup. He conveniently forgets the part about ESOP and our veto rights on the BOD that were bought and paid for with our $. He is also full of BS wrt "conditions and restrictions and fences." Complete and utter fabrication. When UAL even mentioned fences around the 747 and 777, the east pilots threw a hissy fit of epic proportion. Fences were not in their vocabulary as they salivated over our WB international operation. It was a dirty word as far as they were concerned. I got that straight from the merger committee chair. They went so far as to argue that their cute little 330 was the equivalent of the 777ER and they should get equal weighting. Their history of wanting the world at the expense of others due to their feelings of entitlement, is indisputable. It's on the record, time and time again for all to see.

Remember the argument of a "fair" integration being one where everyone is equally pissed off? I guess SWA just blew that theory out of the water. Their integration was agreed to by huge majorities on both sides without the need of an arbitrator. And it's simply because they are dealing with rational realistic people who do not have delusions of grandeur and self entitled attitudes.

The only partial truth in his rant is that the CO/UA merger has the potential for pilots hired at UAL in the 90's to be placed behind pilots hired at CO in the 2000's. This is not a staple job as he says but a has to do with equipment and status. But the truth of the matter is that it won't be considered a "screw job." Whatever the result of final and binding arbitration produces will be accepted and life will go on, with significant financial benefits for all involved. I for one may very well end up next to a guy hired in 2005, and that is fine by me if that is the end result.

 

[Move2CLT]

....we are fine out east.

NICDOA
NPJB

No, you're not.

Fact is your begging for raises at every crew news, begging for compromise with the west, and now you're begging for change at USAPA either through Cleary's removal or a merger with the IBT.

Fine? Far from it.

Enjoy being fine on LOA 93.

 

[Injunction junction]

My my aren't you special.......it has been 6 years....might take another 4-5....we are fine out east. Enjoy your stagnation.
You earned it!!

NICDOA
NPJB

Take a good look ladies and gentleman, here is someone who thinks he's won something when in reality all you have won is the right to stay at the industries bottom. BTW if you are really and truly fine out east then why the job action that has resulted in my name sake. INJUNCTION JUNCTION WHAT'S YOUR FUNCTION? I'm gonna get you there if your very careful.

Injunction seals loa93 for the clueless.

 

[nevergiveup]

Never;
I don't quite understand why I would need Xanax. I don't take any prescription medication. All I know is that Xanax is some sort of anti-anxiety medication. Here's the actual information:

Alprazolam (Xanax) is used to treat anxiety disorders and panic disorder (sudden, unexpected attacks of extreme fear and worry about these attacks). Alprazolam is in a class of medications called benzodiazepines. It works by decreasing abnormal excitement in the brain.

I don't have any sudden or unexpected attacks of extreme fear or worry of of such attacks. I am a normal well balanced American male. I have a great family & family life. I still enjoy & fly little airplanes as often as I can. I eat lots of fiber and exercise, and I support Leonidas the the greatest financial ability that I can.

Speaking of anxiety, panic & fear....do you suppose luvthe9, Claxon/Sumadarson/Nostrodomus/Apollo, & MM might need to seek this kind of medication? Some of the recent posts from these gentlemen have reeked of desperation.

Admitting one needs help is often the first step to a cure!

 

[PullUp]

Looks like yet another integration that doesn't use the "gold standard" of DOH. Another slotting using things like pay, career expectations, and the particular facts of their merger. Go figure! 😉

Once again, each integration turns on its own facts as there is no one-size-fits-all approach to seniority integrations.

I guess the Airtran guys saw the writing on the wall and realized the benefit to them in pay and working conditions. Imagine that.

You guess wrong. LUV threatened to park the 717's, take the 737's and furlough everyone.
Yes, AirTran made the wise choice, under the circumstances.
Cheers.