US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Could be that or maybe I just really didn't care seeing as how the clown factory out east likes to invent rules as they go along. Get this and get it good Pi you will never ever see a DOH integration, there will be no compromise as the NIC was the compromise. There will be no ZERO pay raises in the east until you accept the terms of the agreement we had in arbitration. Story written all over the wall yet you and the circus acts refuse to read it. Tried the illegal job action route and that blew up in your face with the terminations of east circus clowns.

How much stupider can you folks get? Oh check that I forgot it was the east we were talking about. Killing yourselves at every turn.

Injunction

BTW if you could get it you would have by now! Let that sink in real good Clown.

And you are calling other people clowns. If you and your friends were east pilots, you would be the loudest, most diehard FOCs.

I accepted things a long time ago. They will be what they will be what they will be when the final gavel drops. Why do you have to keep telling me these things? Who are you REALLY trying to convince? Yourself?

 

[Pi brat]

That's OK. Cleary does a great job of keeping your side in constant turmoil. We want that until the court system has its say.

Then you will pick up the pieces? And you guys call us stupid..........

 

[luvthe9]

In case you haven't noticed, our union is lead by a dictator. A junior one at that. The only thing that resembled a democracy was the representational election, which IMO would be lost if it were held again today. Nothing the union has done in recent history can be claimed to have been done democratically. This is not transparency. This is not accountability. This is not lower cost or less BS than ALPA. This is none of the things it was supposed to be. Least of all democratic. Put a contract with Nic out for a vote and THAT would be democratic. If it were voted down we would have the truth. It would definitively shut up even the loudest critics of Cleary if the pilot groups speaks as you claim. Until then we have nothing but speculation and cheerleading by the vocal minority.

I seriously doubt you are as senior as you say, given your penchant for rampant anger. Many of us are driven by integrity and understand the reality of the facts. Too many people around here let emotion rule their world.

This sure sounds like you Metro or Aqua, you guys have so many multiple screen names it's hard to keep up. And yes I am as senior as I have said, do tell, where are you on the list?

 

[Pi brat]

No, it won't leave a mark. The fact is that we respect the truth and those that tell it. Your side wouldn't understand that concept. It's all just win or lose with you.

He was wrong! Making a definitive statement, and he was WRONG, yet your side respects the truth and only our side is just win or lose? You guys are so delusional. What did they put in your drinks last night?

From your posts, the screen name fits.

 

[eastcoast]

Good chance as there are many more MIGS today than there were when Cleary was elected. Many had refused to join the union and had no vote. There are still quite a few of those now, but not nearly as many.

We will see in the spring, won't we?

I don't think that would be a representation of the will or mood of the east for several reasons. First, as you said, some or maybe even many of the west might vote for Cleary as a strategic move, which could skew the results in Cleary's favor. That would falsely motivate some on the east to say "see! we support DOH, separate ops, and LOA 93 forever!" Others on the east might vote for him to save face, but would also vote for a Contract with the Nic in order to move on.

A representational election on the other hand, would go more along philosophical lines. Either you support USAPA's strategy and leadership, or you support a change that leads to a contract that very well might include the Nic. But as I stated earlier, the best way to shut everyone up is to put a Nic inclusive contract up for a vote and see where the cards fall. That would be the simplest and truest form of democracy, and that would show beyond a reasonable doubt where the will of the collective pilot group actually is. Majority rules.

The reason that will never happen is because those in control, the ones who in my opinion are now in the minority, are afraid of the result. They claim majority rule, but they are afraid of what the majority actually want. Dictatorship in it's purest form. They want to dictate from a position of power, what we all should think, believe, and vote on. Just look at all the talking heads here claiming to speak for us all.

 

[eastcoast]

Exactly. If you say Cleary is junior, then the entire AWA group is junior as Cleary was hired in 85.

And where was Cleary at the time of the merger? Hint... Very junior. At our airline 20 years was still junior. I hate to be the one to tell you, but that is a fact. We all chose to be here and stay here for one reason or another. 20 years at the time didn't buy crap. Heck, 17 years got you a place on the unemployment line. That's junior. Just ask the 20 year TWA engineers about how "senior" they were.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I believe the spring elections will be big and everybody better think long term. The SLI will settle in court, everything else, not so much.

Yep. I don't buy the logic from some westies in voting for Cleary. We might as well do what we can to lay the ground work for future relations now, it will be a series of baby steps. I think only a fool would believe that we will settle the SLI between ourselves without court intervention, but we can try to get away from the nastiness towards each other right now.

The human relations aspect of things will be an ongoing process that will last our entire career should the airline continue on, we might as well start that now, we'll need all the help we can get with it.

 

[Reed Richards]

The reason that will never happen is because those in control, the ones who in my opinion are now in the minority, are afraid of the result. They claim majority rule, but they are afraid of what the majority actually want. Dictatorship in it's purest form. They want to dictate from a position of power, what we all should think, believe, and vote on. Just look at all the talking heads here claiming to speak for us all.

The ones "in control" are the majority politically, by definition. Political power is just that, and your twisted logic about why you won't get your Nic vote is just that....twisted. We already had a vote on Nic, it was concluded on 18 April 08 and a new CBL and Union was voted in. An ill advised and premature DFR, followed up by dicta from the Ninth, finished the matter. Its over. No Nic, ever. Something similar, something not appealing to both sides, or something even worse to one side..but no Nic. And not another vote on the matter of that failed proposal from an union now gone.

This is turning into the theater of the absurd. You guys want political power, but you don't put in all three reps for over a year, and a third of you still cannot even vote after almost 4 years. And then you come here crying about being left out of the process. Heck, you apparently are even willing to elect a less than competent, in fact hostile new President so you can gather more legal fodder...for a legal endeavor that has so far proven absolutely worthless, in fact counter to your stated goals.

I guess when you don't like those in charge, and you have miserably failed to participate in the process, it might look like a dictatorship to you.

RR

 

[A320 Driver]

Well be that as it may but when you have a group as unethical as the east has been there are plenty of people both within and outside the process that want to see you fail. No one and I do mean NO ONE likes dishonesty and the east has been the dishonorable lot I have ever seen in my life.

You get everything you deserve.

Function of the INJUNCTION

You are on record with your statement. You said you had seen a draft of the LOA93 arbitration award. If you have, then something has happened to the process. It would be better for you if you are just lying.

Driver <_<

 

[eastcoast]

your twisted logic about why you won't get your Nic vote is just that....twisted. We already had a vote on Nic, it was concluded on 18 April 08 and a new CBL and Union was voted in.

You say ridiculous statements like this and then call MY logic twisted? How ironic. There was never a vote on the Nic. There was a representational election where USAPA won by a small margin under the false pretense of an expedited contract with DOH. You had an angry mob and a bunch of guys telling them what they wanted to hear. That's called opportunism.

With 20/20 hindsight and the evidence of not one step forward, only continued delay, fist fights, no transparency, no oversight, high costs, scandals and ill-advised law suits and witch hunts, there is no longer any hint of democracy left.

But no worries. Not a single thing you or I say here will have any effect whatsoever on the outcome. It is in the hands of the courts. Hence the "no compromise" corner our union has maneuvered us into.

 

[flypg]

I don't think that would be a representation of the will or mood of the east for several reasons. First, as you said, some or maybe even many of the west might vote for Cleary as a strategic move, which could skew the results in Cleary's favor. That would falsely motivate some on the east to say "see! we support DOH, separate ops, and LOA 93 forever!" Others on the east might vote for him to save face, but would also vote for a Contract with the Nic in order to move on.

A representational election on the other hand, would go more along philosophical lines. Either you support USAPA's strategy and leadership, or you support a change that leads to a contract that very well might include the Nic. But as I stated earlier, the best way to shut everyone up is to put a Nic inclusive contract up for a vote and see where the cards fall. That would be the simplest and truest form of democracy, and that would show beyond a reasonable doubt where the will of the collective pilot group actually is. Majority rules.

The reason that will never happen is because those in control, the ones who in my opinion are now in the minority, are afraid of the result. They claim majority rule, but they are afraid of what the majority actually want. Dictatorship in it's purest form. They want to dictate from a position of power, what we all should think, believe, and vote on. Just look at all the talking heads here claiming to speak for us all.

How about YOU do something about it ?

 

[crazystnic]

And where was Cleary at the time of the merger? Hint... Very junior. At our airline 20 years was still junior. I hate to be the one to tell you, but that is a fact. We all chose to be here and stay here for one reason or another. 20 years at the time didn't buy crap. Heck, 17 years got you a place on the unemployment line. That's junior. Just ask the 20 year TWA engineers about how "senior" they were.

and East Coast, how fast were those 26 year Cleary types and those 17 year FO's going to move up once 65 Kicks in and the EAST retirements start..
That is the crux of this, why should an AWA New hire go in front of those who kept this place going by giving up the pensions and the pay!

 

[flypg]

And where was Cleary at the time of the merger? Hint... Very junior. At our airline 20 years was still junior. I hate to be the one to tell you, but that is a fact. We all chose to be here and stay here for one reason or another. 20 years at the time didn't buy crap. Heck, 17 years got you a place on the unemployment line. That's junior. Just ask the 20 year TWA engineers about how "senior" they were.

My guess, without Age 65 rule you would be out of here. How about you enjoy that gift and let us 27 years "junior" worry about it ?

 

[eastcoast]

This sure sounds like you Metro or Aqua, you guys have so many multiple screen names it's hard to keep up. And yes I am as senior as I have said, do tell, where are you on the list?

Your MO never seems to change. With nothing reasonable or productive to say, you resort to personal attacks and attempt to discredit anyone who speaks out against your opinions. Go back to some of my original posts. Shouldn't be too hard since I only recently decided to come off the bench as a lurker and engage in some discussion. It is the peer pressure and bully tactics like yours that have plagued us for decades.

I have no interest in where you reside on the list or who you actually are. I only commented that your attitude does not sound like someone of great seniority. At least not those that I know personally. And I said since day one that I will not engage in such childish debates as they are irrelevant. If you don't like my opinions and ideas, feel free to not respond. If all you have is attacks, save them for someone who cares.

 

[flypg]

The ones "in control" are the majority politically, by definition. Political power is just that, and your twisted logic about why you won't get your Nic vote is just that....twisted. We already had a vote on Nic, it was concluded on 18 April 08 and a new CBL and Union was voted in. An ill advised and premature DFR, followed up by dicta from the Ninth, finished the matter. Its over. No Nic, ever. Something similar, something not appealing to both sides, or something even worse to one side..but no Nic. And not another vote on the matter of that failed proposal from an union now gone.

This is turning into the theater of the absurd. You guys want political power, but you don't put in all three reps for over a year, and a third of you still cannot even vote after almost 4 years. And then you come here crying about being left out of the process. Heck, you apparently are even willing to elect a less than competent, in fact hostile new President so you can gather more legal fodder...for a legal endeavor that has so far proven absolutely worthless, in fact counter to your stated goals.

I guess when you don't like those in charge, and you have miserably failed to participate in the process, it might look like a dictatorship to you.


That's is about as good as it gets...Thanks RR.