US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

The Dec. ruling should be out by April. LOA93 Loss will have been handed down to USAPA and that reality will have had a few months to percolate among the silent majority. I, and others a hell of a lot smarter than I, believe that Judge Silver is going to effectively end this debate by telling the company that they are absolutely liable if they touch the Nic. The law is clear. It is illegal for the company to enjoy the benefits of a new contract that work as a DFR against a group of employees. All AOL has to do is persuade the Judge enough that a DOH contract is indeed a dfr and will make the contract Illegal. Guess where all the evidence for proving that fact will be imported from? Wait for it.......

ADDINGTON!!!

The case that was dead, buried, meaningless, and forgotten will be back front and center to haunt USAPA. Being a Jury already found against USAPA for DFR in regards to a DOH list....how hard is it going to be to convince Silver that a DOH contract is a DFR?

It's a no brainer. USAPA is doomed and they damn well know it. Thank God they finally are getting competent legal advise.

This will be over by April.

I've been as guilty as anyone here of being a smart axx, but this is a serious question: Why do you think this will be over in April? The PHX court is under a judicial emergency(or some term) due to a shortage of judges, right? It took what, a year to get to this point? USAPA is going to fight anything coming from Addington. So why do you think it will be over in April? Is that just your opinion or that of your attorneys. Again, just wanting to hear how you came to that conclusion, not being smart or looking to give you a hard time about it. Thanks.

 

[cactusboy53]

The real problem is the western group needs to stop stealing and get in line with the other groups eastern and western. The western pilots are trying to steal something that isn't theirs. Franke taught this to all the management, early in the days of when this cancerous America West was founded. The entire organization tried to undermine the rest of the true airlines that paid good salaries and benefits. Unfortunately, this disgusting institution is today taking down AMR and its people. It is truly a shame they did not go out of business years ago, or be reformed into an honest airline like Continental did to PeopleExpress and their disgusting way of business.

Every once in a while this little pimple on the A$$ of progress keeps rearing his little head. Claxon: The very REAL problem is that USAPA is in fact in its end game. Your great white hope in the fashion of SSM&P are waltzing away with over 10 Million dollars and have achieved NONE of the promised goals. They have achieved delay & four+ years of wages & time off. The new legal firm is frantically trying to put out fires that SSM&P started. The courts will sooner than later help you finish this.

Go dust off that MDA uniform, you're may need it. We stand FIRMLY on legal, moral and ethical grounds. There has never been a time that the courts have over turned a final and binding award issued by an arbitrator. Even Mike & Randy have said so. Have a great day!

 

[noDOH4u]

I am a west captain and should DOH ever see the light of day east pilots who were on furlough when the acquisition was announced will be hundreds of numbers senior to me. That's a fact and I would call it leapfrogging.

I think you may have missed the sarcasm of his post. If memory serves me, N924PS is an east pilot who does not support USAPA's tactics, and was trying to tell sealbeater that DOH will never happen, which means furloughees will never go ahead of west captains.

 

[cactusboy53]

So, in your poor understanding of labor relations, you think that stands? You are saying a corporation CAN TELL A UNION how to negotiate seniority??? This is what gets you and Leonidas in hot water over and over. You may be able to handle a simple divorce or personal injury case, but when you stick your nose into labor relations, you are clearly over your head. Right back to the 9th, which clearly understood RIPENESS when you took it too far and went ahead with damage before it happened, if it ever happened. Back to the analogy: Can you go to court to sue for damages in a car accident BEFORE it happens? just because you THINK it is going to happen? You tell me counselor. You obviously failed that part of law school, and your backup Jacobs did too. Unbelievable somebody didn't catch that big F up. The 2 MILLION F UP! Round 2, another MAJOR Leonidas misfire. Just because you live in a right to work state does not mean a company can meddle in an internal union issue and TELL it how to propose a seniority list just because they or you are afraid, or don't understand it. Just because you don't get that concept is totally fine with us, because it will just be another spank job. We will just wait for the NMB parachute team to suit up and get ready for another potential drop into an AZ courtroom gone mad.
I say again, just because your crackpot Wake didn't understand labor and how bargaining positions are just that, and the company or court CANNOT dictate internal union bargaining proposals doesn't mean the rest of us and the 9th don't get it. I guarantee you if Silver doesn't get it, she is going to the 9th just like the Desert Judge. This will be what comes , again.

CONCLUSION
[10] For the foregoing reasons, we hold that Plaintiffs’
DFR claim is not ripe; therefore, the case is REMANDED to
the district court with directions that the action be DISMISSED.
No costs to either side.

Temper, temper.....See you in court. BTW....it's our money, don't you worry your pretty little head how we spend it. Go get some popcorn & a soda, the legal end is drawing near. 🙂

 

[A320 Driver]

I think you may have missed the sarcasm of his post. If memory serves me, N924PS is an east pilot who does not support USAPA's tactics, and was trying to tell sealbeater that DOH will never happen, which means furloughees will never go ahead of west captains.

Nor should they, but they did deserve some consideration for their LOS and got stapled. You can make any argument you like against it, but you will never justify throwing out a pilot's contribution to his employer. And as far as I am concerned, this is the same employer. Just different people running it.

Driver B)

 

[cactusboy53]

So, you agree that binding arbitration is simply a tool. Thanks.

SealBeater;
You seem to be a little confused. Here's what the NMB has to say about arbitration:

Interest Arbitration: Interest arbitration is a process to establish the terms of a new or modified collective bargaining agreement through arbitration, rather than through negotiations. Although the RLA provides an effective process for interest arbitration, its use is not statutorily required. The NMB offers the parties the opportunity to use interest arbitration when the Agency has determined that further mediation efforts will not be successful. In addition, the parties may directly agree to resolve their collective bargaining dispute or portions of their dispute through interest arbitration. The NMB generally provides the parties with panels of potential arbitrators from which they select the individuals to resolve the dispute. (In some instances, the parties’ agreement to arbitrate allows the NMB to directly appoint an arbitrator.) An interest arbitration decision is final and binding with very narrow grounds for a judicial appeal. (http://www.nmb.gov/helpdesk/helpdesk_jurisdiction.html)

To answer your next question, the "very narrow grounds for judicial appeal" has already been explored, and found lacking.

So to recap, Final and Binding IS FINAL AND BINDING (not a "tool"). There are a few extra "tools" on this forum, however...... 😛

 

[noDOH4u]

Judge Silver is going to effectively end this debate by telling the company that they are absolutely liable if they touch the Nic.

I agree with your entire post except for this one detail. I think the court will tell them that if they collude with USAPA to modify the Nic, then they will be liable to the west if DFR II happens and if the west wins DFR II. In other words, the trigger to their liability will not be touching the Nic, but a DFR II win by the west.

I know it's semantics because the only thing that would keep you, me, or just about any west pilot from filing DFR II would be DOH with captain pay protection and furlough protection of every one of our pilots for the remainder of our careers. (Or long enough that it just won't matter. 20 years should do it.) Barring that, USAPA and the company will be sued into oblivion, and we can all retire now with a big fat damages payoff. The court will not tell the company what to do. Only make it crystal clear what consequences they face. They can touch the Nic if they want to roll the dice. I doubt the Board of Directors would allow anyone to make such a reckless decision.

So, with that real threat hanging over them, the company will have to grow a set and tell the east that Nic is the only list they will consider. Then offer a decent contract with Nic in section 22. With the Kasher loss and no where else to turn, the majority of east pilots will vote for their financial well being rather than their twisted sense of entitlement. The end result will be the same.

 

[noDOH4u]

Nor should they, but they did deserve some consideration for their LOS and got stapled. You can make any argument you like against it, but you will never justify throwing out a pilot's contribution to his employer. And as far as I am concerned, this is the same employer. Just different people running it.

Driver B)

OK, several comments on this.

First of all, at the time LOS was not part of ALPA merger policy. So the arbitrator COULD consider anything he wanted or that was presented to him, but was not bound to consider that.

Second, your merger committee was not allowed to proffer any ideas or suggestions other than DOH. You guys could have brought the idea of credit for LOS to the table but did not. The arbitrator you selected even asked you for different ideas. Your merger committee tried. Your MEC threatened recall because they were so supremely confident that DOH was the gold standard. So the responsibility of not having considered LOS for your furloughed pilots is on each of you for not having better control over your MEC and your negotiators. Now it seems you want to shift that blame to the ALPA National, Nicolau, the west pilots, or anyone else.

My argument is not against credit for LOS. My argument is that the time for that has long passed. Coming at us with a "my way or the highway" approach during negotiation and mediation, then wanting LOS for furloughees after your plan A failed is not the way it works. Were we to negotiate your position FOR you and suggest credit for LOS at the table out of the goodness of our hearts, while you were trying to shove your DOH plan down our throats?

Then you took away our representation with your USAPA mob-rule scheme thinking it was the fast track to avoiding binding arbitration and out of LOA93. Years later, having failed at that and with no options remaining you say we should "never justify throwing out a pilot's contribution to his employer."

Finally, when we argue that furloughees should not go ahead of west captains, you now agree with "nor should they." Where was that sentiment during the DOH cram down phase? And please don't insult me with reference to the wildly impotent C&R's. Your collective actions have left zero trust or goodwill. Blaming us for your collective missteps only makes it worse.

I submit that with reference to throwing out a pilot's contribution to his employer, it is the east that threw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[prechilill]

Nor should they, but they did deserve some consideration for their LOS and got stapled. You can make any argument you like against it, but you will never justify throwing out a pilot's contribution to his employer. And as far as I am concerned, this is the same employer. Just different people running it.

Driver B)

And that's the point- all contributions to said (new) employer are preserved in a fair manner- you got out of it what you came into it with. What you want is a make-up at the expense of the west pilots for all the problems from your previous employer, all of which happened before the west pilots even showed up. That is a little unfair. How about if you give us half your retirement? That's about as fair as what you are asking us for. Get it?

Didn't think so...

 

[A320 Driver]

OK, several comments on this.

You talk as if I did this personally. I didn't. I was expressing support for a group that I feel didn't receive any...no more no less.

Driver B)

 

[A320 Driver]

And that's the point- all contributions to said (new) employer are preserved in a fair manner- you got out of it what you came into it with. What you want is a make-up at the expense of the west pilots for all the problems from your previous employer, all of which happened before the west pilots even showed up. That is a little unfair. How about if you give us half your retirement? That's about as fair as what you are asking us for. Get it?

Didn't think so...

Fairness is truly a personal perspective. NIC is fair to you because it put you senior to a good number of East pilots. You wouldn't be so happy if the shoe was on the other foot.

As for my retirement....you want have of my 28K a year? Get in line behind my Ex wife.

Driver 😛

 

[luvthe9]

This will be over by April.

For the west if not sooner, I agree.

 

[traderjake]

What's your source or is this just more mindless speculation of your part?

 

[crazystnic]

The Dec. ruling should be out by April. LOA93 Loss will have been handed down to USAPA and that reality will have had a few months to percolate among the silent majority. I, and others a hell of a lot smarter than I, believe that Judge Silver is going to effectively end this debate by telling the company that they are absolutely liable if they touch the Nic. The law is clear. It is illegal for the company to enjoy the benefits of a new contract that work as a DFR against a group of employees. All AOL has to do is persuade the Judge enough that a DOH contract is indeed a dfr and will make the contract Illegal. Guess where all the evidence for proving that fact will be imported from? Wait for it.......

ADDINGTON!!!

The case that was dead, buried, meaningless, and forgotten will be back front and center to haunt USAPA. Being a Jury already found against USAPA for DFR in regards to a DOH list....how hard is it going to be to convince Silver that a DOH contract is a DFR?

It's a no brainer. USAPA is doomed and they damn well know it. Thank God they finally are getting competent legal advise.

This will be over by April.

It hardly will be over by April win or lose this will be go to appeal... It's a long way from over.. separate ops is the answer.

 

[crazystnic]

Nor should they, but they did deserve some consideration for their LOS and got stapled. You can make any argument you like against it, but you will never justify throwing out a pilot's contribution to his employer. And as far as I am concerned, this is the same employer. Just different people running it.

Driver B)

well said A320,
and the furloughed will not go ahead of the WEST capt.. even with the DOH.
just on the list but not in the seats.