US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Our PHX rep Eric F. Is receiving more phone calls from east Captains than the easy reps are? Why? They're venting to him about how they've had it with Cleary. They've told Eric the want a contract now and they'll take the Nic.

That's interesting. Did he reiterate to all those east captains that he supports Cleary?

 

[Pi brat]

More semantics and you know it. We are talking about at the PID. Lets stop pretending that anything that happened after the merger would have also happened absent the merger. Once the merger happened, the macro economics of the combined entity and the business plan changed.

The same PID where we had about 279 A/C? Then Nic used 2007 for the actual list when we had about 225? That PID?

Do you realize that the bottom 737 captain on the east is sitting at around the bottom 18% of the Nic list? All that change while operating about 60 less airframes, even if there were gains for IROs, extra check airman etc.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

More semantics and you know it. We are talking about at the PID. Lets stop pretending that anything that happened after the merger would have also happened absent the merger. Once the merger happened, the macro economics of the combined entity and the business plan changed.

I have to call you out on this one. You definitely sound like a west pilot. How about before the merger? Tell us what you know about our no furlough clause, i.e. what we gave up to get it in the contract, and what took it away causing us to be undermanned during the PID.

 

[Injunction junction]

A lot of bold statements in there. Do you actually know V? Is that how you can make those statements about what he did/did not do? Knew/ did not know?

Pi it really doesnt matter if I know him/her or not what does matter is that this person was not there! The statements that have been made by V about events are simply not true. Now I have told you in another post or rather answered questions you asked of me. I did not lie or otherwise inflate the truth. I told you of the events that took place and how certain elements effected decisions that were made. I will say this again for you and others, I have nothing at all to gain by lying to you or anyone else on this forum. In fact I have far more to lose by lying. This is why I have asked all that read this forum to just do the minimum of research of the events and facts.

Injunction

 

[Pi brat]

This is the problem. Too many for too long, look at their % and raw numbers instead of looking what their new number will buy them going forward in a bigger company, versus where they would have been absent this merger. And they assume absent the merger everything would have been just fine and dandy. Sure, I concede that everyone's % changes and in some cases drops steeply. But accepting the arbitrated award and getting a contract also means there is a company to return to, a big raise, better work rules, and they still get their captain seat, even if it's 2 or even 3-4 years later, it's not such a bad deal. No one is getting screwed so bad to have created such a mess that has kept every one of us on bankruptcy wages for so many years. I think it's more about egos, hopes of a future merger, and fear mongering than anything else.

I believe Nicolau did/does think its fair. I also think considering how our MEC hamstrung the negotiating committee, preventing us from presenting any ideas outside the box, Nicolau did the best he could and the responsibility for the result rests squarely on our collective heads. The right thing to do is move forward, accept the arbitrated award, and get the most improvements for the greatest number of pilots through contract improvements.

I don't know this guy. I am judging based on the actions of our union and those who support the path we are on.

IMO people forget that we had one foot in the grave, and absent the merger our days were numbered. USAPA has created a far greater mess than Nicolau did.

When this first came out and I saw the charts that showed my progression I came to the conclusion that I would be better off accepting the Nic and getting a contract instead of fighting this out for years. I also realized that was not the case for some of those that were junior to me, and I understood their frustration and that coupled with viewing the Kirby proposal, there wasn't going to be much to offset that hit. They decided it was better to fight it, so here we are.

There have been plenty of players in the mess, but IMHO we ALL failed when we went in after the Nic came out.

I disagree and lay more blame with Nic. Yes, we had a foot in the grave, but as you pointed out the merger changed the dynamic for all of us. He gave to much to the west going forward. Too much shifts from east to west.

 

[Pi brat]

Pi it really doesnt matter if I know him/her or not what does matter is that this person was not there! The statements that have been made by V about events are simply not true. Now I have told you in another post or rather answered questions you asked of me. I did not lie or otherwise inflate the truth. I told you of the events that took place and how certain elements effected decisions that were made. I will say this again for you and others, I have nothing at all to gain by lying to you or anyone else on this forum. In fact I have far more to lose by lying. This is why I have asked all that read this forum to just do the minimum of research of the events and facts.

Injunction

Well, I looked at the post your were addressing and didn't see him stating many "facts". Most of what is debated on here is either opinions or someones self proclaimed "facts". I will go back and look at the post and see if I read it differently now.

 

[Pi brat]

Pilot pay was frozen under LOA93 until the two annual lump sum payments. The "frozen until" date means two specific things - 1) the pilot pay rates became amendable at that date so that the CBA and Management would be required to begin working on a new CBA. LOA 93 didn't authorize any change in pay rates as it merely ensured that no change in rates would occur before the amendable date when ultimately new rates would be established via negotiations; and 2) the lump sum payments were authorized by the agreement in lieu of any other wages considerations. The lump sums are the negotiated return on investment for the east pilots for agreeing to LOA93 while the company was in bankruptcy and to gain approval from the MIGS versus the documented court-imposed and more severe contract terms.

Kasher can read the black and white print of the agreement as you suggest, but your 50:50 estimate is way too generous for the odds of a USAPA win. There is certainly a better chance of Kasher restoring pay than say USAPA attaining a non-NIC JCBA, but the probability of Kasher restoring pay rates is still a number significantly closer to zero compared to the odds of a simple coin flip.

Then what are we waiting on? Let's just call the company up and tell him we should have just called you and saved ourselves a lot of grief.

Why is it so hard to just wait and see what Mr. Kasher says?

 

[luvthe9]

Something did happen. It became amendable. And you need a new contract that has the Nic in it to get out from underneath it.

It didn't become anything but dead on Dec 31 09. The deadbeat Parker is trying to get out of it. Kasher is going to pull him up short on his leash very shortly. Then the west is really in trouble. The east guys will have the high pay, and the Nicolau will be a figment of the Leonidas jackwagons' imagination. I want to hear how you kids try and talk your way out of that one.

 

[luvthe9]

Then what are we waiting on? Let's just call the company up and tell him we should have just called you and saved ourselves a lot of grief.

Why is it so hard to just wait and see what Mr. Kasher says?

Remember, this guy works as a manager in this crappy outfit. What does that tell you?

 

[Move2CLT]

That's interesting. Did he reiterate to all those east captains that he supports Cleary?

Actually, he did Pi. One reason why Eric gets so much east traffic is because he is honest and straight with them.

They ask him about Leonidas, Addingtion, and address gate. He tells them the stuff Theur doesn't let him put out via USAPA.

And he does specifically tell them that he will support Cleary in the next election. You'll see that recommendation via Leonidas as well,in which Eric is still active.

I make that a point as well. Cleary is the best thing to happen for the west. Egomaniacal, self-centered, and overly emotional.

Perfect.

 

[Injunction junction]

OK, I'll bite. What part are you claiming is hearsay? The part about the attrition or the part about Wye river? Again, not that any of it will make a whit of difference in the end. We will remain separate ops forever and move up accordingly. The anger, animosity, and the resentment has not diminished one iota. There is no way they can put this together and still have an airline. It would be even better than a strike. The company shot themselves in the foot with their lack of intellect or leadership. Morons to the end.


V

Please dont try and change the subject to something that its not. YOU made claims about event that took place during meetings between east and west that did not actually happen. I know for a fact that you were not present at any of these meetings. The claims you have made never ever took place. If you were in attendance than that make you a liar!

Now let me make one more thing crystal clear to you sir, unless you posses the ability to see into and predict the future with absolute certainty, you can NOT claim we will be separate ops forever. I say put your money where your mouth is and lets present a TA to the pilots with the NIC and see if it will pass. There is simply no harm in doing so if you believe you are correct now is there?

Injunction

 

[Move2CLT]

The deadbeat Parker is trying to get out of it.

I move that the above is labeled most hypocritical post of the year.

Anyone second that?

 

[Move2CLT]

It didn't become anything but dead on Dec 31 09. The deadbeat Parker is trying to get out of it. Kasher is going to pull him up short on his leash very shortly. Then the west is really in trouble. The east guys will have the high pay, and the Nicolau will be a figment of the Leonidas jackwagons' imagination. I want to hear how you kids try and talk your way out of that one.

That's obviously incorrect about it dying. You're still working under it so it's alive and well.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Then what are we waiting on? Let's just call the company up and tell him we should have just called you and saved ourselves a lot of grief.

Why is it so hard to just wait and see what Mr. Kasher says?

That's been my take on it too. However, the natives are restless and bringing up ancient letters and excerpts for the mountains of evidence presented to Kasher. I've been fairly content to wait it out, but when NY says it's all in B&W or by implication "so simple a caveman can do it" I felt the need to weigh in on the yet-pending decision. I've read enough of the docs to see that USAPA's case is exceedingly thin at best, but there is always hope that Kasher will read things the way east pilots want him to. I would place the odds at only slightly better than me winning the 2012 presidential election as an unannounced write-in candidate. It could happen because the odds are not zero.

 

[Move2CLT]

That's interesting. Did he reiterate to all those east captains that he supports Cleary?

Pi, Eric's number is in the USAPA directory. Why don't you call him directly. He returns each and every call and he's on paid vacation right now.