US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Meanwhile, in Captain Gay’s projections as a junior Captain he had a block time of 62:16 and pay time of 96:46 with 17 days off for the month. Would any East pilot like that schedule, productivity, and pay time?

USA320Pilot

96:46 pay for 62:16 work. That sounds awfully inefficient. Is that a common ratio out west? Is he deadheading out east all the time to fly his trips? ;-) If so, guess what that mean for PHX with a joint contract.

 

[Move2CLT]

96:46 pay for 62:16 work. That sounds awfully inefficient. Is that a common ratio out west? Is he deadheading out east all the time to fly his trips? ;-)

Look at Pi all worried about efficiency He's got a soft spot for the company after all.

 

[Pi brat]

This is a true statement. Now one need only ask why the east walked out of negotiations. We would all have done better if they had honored their obligations and now 5yrs later they come begging. I dont think there is a single west pilot that even if we could would go back after the fact and do mediation. Everyone had their day in court and this is over. The only ones being hurt now are the east guys about to retire in a few months. Separate ops for the west now seem like a blessing. LOA93 for the east has reached its breaking point and many of you are tired of being held hostage.

Tell your bpr to put it to a vote.

Injunction

Walking out of JNC talks was one of our biggest mistakes. I told my ALPA reps that, they didn't listen to me either.

That being said, put what out? Seriously. Are you saying go back and pull out everything ALPA had, put it on the table and see if the company will do a TA? What about the min fleet? What about E190 pay? Was sick and LTD figured out? It's been a while and I don't remember.

I'm listening, because you are right, a vote would answer a lot of questions.

 

[GuntherA320]

Serious question for you.

Why would USAPA offer a seniority compromise if they are sure of an LOA 93 win?

I understand that this is part of the new legal strategy to make Leonidas appear to be the party that is not willing to compromise in the DJ. Judge Silver asked if there was any way to compromise back in Feb. If Leonidas is not willing to come off of their position at all it will be no different than the AAA ALPA MEC that wouldn't come off of DOH/LOS prior to the NIC Award. Leonidas may get the NIC award after all.......with fences bigger than they ever imagined.

On a side note.....heard from a check airman yesterday that the company is preparing to hire 200 - 250 pilots on the East for the 3rd and 4th quarter of next year (2012) in order to prepare for the East's retirements. Expect interviewing to start in the spring. With only 81 E190 f/o positions, most new hires will go to the 737 or A320. No word on the return of the West furloughs.

 

[Claxon]

Oh the memories, right easties?

I love this line here. I still can't stop laughing at it. What corner was turned? Was it the one where all the BPR officers sleep with the help?

"We have hope. With hope comes participation. With participation comes resolve.
With resolve comes progress, and with progress comes hope. We have turned the corner."

http://1.usairlinepilots.org/card_party.htm

Move2Clt- Injunctions is jealous of the stuff that flows from your mouth......

 

[Injunction junction]

Walking out of JNC talks was one of our biggest mistakes. I told my ALPA reps that, they didn't listen to me either.

That being said, put what out? Seriously. Are you saying go back and pull out everything ALPA had, put it on the table and see if the company will do a TA? What about the min fleet? What about E190 pay? Was sick and LTD figured out? It's been a while and I don't remember.

I'm listening, because you are right, a vote would answer a lot of questions.

Pi,

If usapa were serious about getting a contract they could look over the finished product that the alpa neg team put together and adjust for time bringing it to today's value. Certain items like e190 pay you leave out not the item just the rates. Now wait Pi dont get all upset. You leave it for a reason. You get all the other sections complete and submit to the pilots and the company. If the company agrees thats great and in the 11th hr you remind them we have an open item at which point you give the company the rates. Now they want the deal as a whole but they dont have time to cost out the e190 rates at that short time. Stall on that minor issue and it could mess up the whole deal so they sign.

Now there were some issues regarding sick not LTD. East uses a bank system where we use an industry leading STD that is paid BY THE COMPANY. It pays out at 66% but you keep your sick time for when you need again. The bank system while good has some issues that plague most pilot groups. It eats up time. Many may need to use a sick day just because they cant commute and with the bank system you could eat that up quickly. The biggest problem though Pi is if you really get disabled and you know you may hit LTD. It takes 6mos to reach LTD and if you dont have 480hrs in that bank you hit a serious void. With STD there are no worries you get paid that 66% until you hit LTD.

Injunction

 

[Piedmont1984]

Walking out of JNC talks was one of our biggest mistakes. I told my ALPA reps that, they didn't listen to me either.

That being said, put what out? Seriously. Are you saying go back and pull out everything ALPA had, put it on the table and see if the company will do a TA? What about the min fleet? What about E190 pay? Was sick and LTD figured out? It's been a while and I don't remember.

I'm listening, because you are right, a vote would answer a lot of questions.

Or a poll/survey.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I understand that this is part of the new legal strategy to make Leonidas appear to be the party that is not willing to compromise in the DJ. Judge Silver asked if there was any way to compromise back in Feb. If Leonidas is not willing to come off of their position at all it will be no different than the AAA ALPA MEC that wouldn't come off of DOH/LOS prior to the NIC Award. Leonidas may get the NIC award after all.......with fences bigger than they ever imagined.

On a side note.....heard from a check airman yesterday that the company is preparing to hire 200 - 250 pilots on the East for the 3rd and 4th quarter of next year (2012) in order to prepare for the East's retirements. Expect interviewing to start in the spring. With only 81 E190 f/o positions, most new hires will go to the 737 or A320. No word on the return of the West furloughs.

And it's even more likely that the both the west and the east will "get" the NIC unmodified with no additional restrictions or barriers as it was intended by the arbitration panel when the award was issued. The Company attorneys and the Addington class will make sure that judge Silver understands the merits and outcome of the first DFR trial in PHX. There is a superabundance of evidence from that trial that will seed the proceedings in Silver's court leading her, as a matter of law, to the conclusion that any non-NIC seniority list is a clear DFR for USAPA. Based on that she will provide the company its requested relief from USAPA trying to force any other seniority list into negotiations. If that happens there will be no more talk of the NIC being dead, DOH, C&R, or judge Wake getting paddled by the Ninth. December 1st is fast approaching and it is sure to be a eye-opening experience for some.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Walking out of JNC talks was one of our biggest mistakes. I told my ALPA reps that, they didn't listen to me either.

That being said, put what out? Seriously. Are you saying go back and pull out everything ALPA had, put it on the table and see if the company will do a TA? What about the min fleet? What about E190 pay? Was sick and LTD figured out? It's been a while and I don't remember.

I'm listening, because you are right, a vote would answer a lot of questions.

PI Brat,

I doesn't matter. USAPA's effort to mediate the DJ case will likely not be ordered by Judge Silver and the union will likely lose the LOA 93 grievance. If these two issues go against the union I expect the remaining wheels will come off of USAPA.

As far as Scope I agree with you, but the parties did not reach an agreement on Scope either by the JNC or NAC. I expect the combined contract Scope to have the total minimum hulls/ minimum block hours of the combined fleet and East fragmentation rights, etc. to remain from the current contract

USA320Pilot

 

[Injunction junction]

Move2Clt- Injunctions A## hole is jealous of the stuff that flows from your mouth......

Why must you be so nasty?? You dont know me and for you to make such a statement about someone you have never met, paints a no so pretty picture of you. The company has a program to help you deal with that anger might I suggest that you use it.

Injunction

 

[GuntherA320]

And it's even more likely that the both the west and the east will "get" the NIC unmodified with no additional restrictions or barriers as it was intended by the arbitration panel when the award was issued. The Company attorneys and the Addington class will make sure that judge Silver understands the merits and outcome of the first DFR trial in PHX. There is a superabundance of evidence from that trial that will seed the proceedings in Silver's court leading her, as a matter of law, to the conclusion that any non-NIC seniority list is a clear DFR for USAPA. Based on that she will provide the company its requested relief from USAPA trying to force any other seniority list into negotiations. If that happens there will be no more talk of the NIC being dead, DOH, C&R, or judge Wake getting paddled by the Ninth. December 1st is fast approaching and it is sure to be a eye-opening experience for some.

Good luck with that. Glad to see you know what Judge Silver thinks before she does. 🙂

I agree....you shouldn't be worried at all. In a perfect Leonidas world, Judge Silver will order the NIC unmodified and into immediate effect and will skip any future DFR and go ahead and award damages totaling 10 bazillion dollars to the West pilots. USAPA won't appeal and this will be over by January.

In the real world....if she says NIC can't be modified....this will drag out another 4 or 5 years. The good news in that scenario is that Chip will have 2 years left at new pay before he has to retire.

 

[Injunction junction]

I understand that this is part of the new legal strategy to make Leonidas appear to be the party that is not willing to compromise in the DJ. Judge Silver asked if there was any way to compromise back in Feb. If Leonidas is not willing to come off of their position at all it will be no different than the AAA ALPA MEC that wouldn't come off of DOH/LOS prior to the NIC Award. Leonidas may get the NIC award after all.......with fences bigger than they ever imagined.

On a side note.....heard from a check airman yesterday that the company is preparing to hire 200 - 250 pilots on the East for the 3rd and 4th quarter of next year (2012) in order to prepare for the East's retirements. Expect interviewing to start in the spring. With only 81 E190 f/o positions, most new hires will go to the 737 or A320. No word on the return of the West furloughs.

Its too bad that you fail to understand our legal system. If you did you would see that any strategy to make AOL appear like anything other than it really is would be a failure on usapa's part. Now the court is well aware of all compromises that the west MEC made. I am certain that she has read all the briefs and she has also read the award in its entirety. She will have read how the arbitrator stated very clearly that he would NOT be doing a list based on DOH and gave the parties time to rethink their positions. She will have further read how the west returned after that 30 period with even more room while Dan Katz stated very clearly that the east mec has no change in its original position of DOH ONLY.

Now, shortly thereafter the award was issued and the east began this crusade of not honoring the agreement that has lasted 5yrs. She will make the very easy connection as why usapa was created and all the dirty underhanded tricks its played for several years. She will have read how the east was recently enjoined for conducting and illegal job action. So tell us, if it were up to you would you further make a fool of yourself before your honor by stating "the west wont compromise for us"???

Think before you answer.

Injunction

 

[CallawayGolf]

Good luck with that. Glad to see you know what Judge Silver thinks before she does. 🙂

Perhaps you missed the qualifier words in my post such as "likely" and "if". I don't know what's going to happen, but I know that she has already said essentially that not only is the Company's DJ ripe, it is basically the textbook situation as to why the DJ provisions were established. That means she has already identified that the company is facing genuine legal harm by USAPA demanding a non-NIC list. If she didn't believe there was harm she would have dismissed the case already. Likewise, she has already identified that the company faces genuine harm if USAPA could get the released to self-help over this issue. Thus the Company is legally entitled to judicial relief.

Combine those two threats of harm and that means Silver will have to consider what the possible actions of the company would lead to. Certainly she understands that having USAPA get released to self-help over S22 can only be prevented by the courts since the company cannot accept a non-NIC list in violation of the TA (remember she has already ruled that the company faces a real threat from west pilots of a DFR collusion and breech of contract lawsuit). That means she will need to consider the legal consequences of any non-NIC list being accepted. Now where has that issue come before a federal court before I wonder? Oh, that's right the Addington matter which she is fully aware of and has already inquired of the parties about importing the material from that case into the DJ. Two of three parties said absolutely that should happen and one fallen-from-favor attorney for USAPA has said that wasn't a good idea because mean old judge Wake wasn't fair with $eham. If Addington gets imported then the most logical conclusion is that any non-NIC list is equivalent to a DFR. Remember again that USAPA didn't present an alternative list in Addington I; the judge and jury didn't care what USAPA did with a non-NIC list, it was legally determined on the merits that any non-NIC list is a breach of DFR.

Does it seem like the walls are closing in now that this is all just a bit more clear? Real harm exists for a non-NIC list and there is ample evidence to show that as a matter of fact (merits not ripeness). IMO this can only lead to one outcome if Silver follows the law and the logic of all this (notice my qualifiers again, but she is smart and far less tolerant of attorney antics than Wake let $eham get away with). December 1st should be fun.

 

[cactusboy53]

I understand that this is part of the new legal strategy to make Leonidas appear to be the party that is not willing to compromise in the DJ. Judge Silver asked if there was any way to compromise back in Feb. If Leonidas is not willing to come off of their position at all it will be no different than the AAA ALPA MEC that wouldn't come off of DOH/LOS prior to the NIC Award. Leonidas may get the NIC award after all.......with fences bigger than they ever imagined.

On a side note.....heard from a check airman yesterday that the company is preparing to hire 200 - 250 pilots on the East for the 3rd and 4th quarter of next year (2012) in order to prepare for the East's retirements. Expect interviewing to start in the spring. With only 81 E190 f/o positions, most new hires will go to the 737 or A320. No word on the return of the West furloughs.

L;
I'm trying my best to wrap my head around this "strategy": USAPA now wants to paint the Leonidas group as bad guys because we won't be a party to compromising an already agreed upon process? Even IF any West pilot came forward to "help" USAPA mediate a FINAL & BINDING arbitration....what expectation would that person have of the east pilots accepting THAT position?

BTW, a contract that includes the Nicolau Award with "fences bigger than they ever imagined" is then something OTHER than what was agreed upon. Hence that would also be RIPE for another DFR against USAPA and the company (unless Judge Silver gives LCC a hall pass on liability).

Congratulations on the hiring for all of us. The remaining West furloughees that want to come back will come back in 2012 (IMHO), based on need. The pity is that had we stayed ALPA, we would all had perhaps 11% on top of the west wage AND enough VACATION TIME and contract improvements that NO ONE WOULD HAVE BEEN FURLOUGHED. On top of that, we would have been in contract negotiations for a SECOND post-merger contract NOW.

You said at dinner 4+ years ago that the courts will settle this. That unfortunately is true. Some of you are actually seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. What a terrible loss of money, time off and contract improvements that can NEVER be recaptured.

See you in CLT sometime. I'll buy a tank of gas for the 7GCBC, and you can try to make me sick.... 😀

CB aka D

 

[GuntherA320]

L;
I'm trying my best to wrap my head around this "strategy": USAPA now wants to paint the Leonidas group as bad guys because we won't be a party to compromising an already agreed upon process? Even IF any West pilot came forward to "help" USAPA mediate a FINAL & BINDING arbitration....what expectation would that person have of the east pilots accepting THAT position?

BTW, a contract that includes the Nicolau Award with "fences bigger than they ever imagined" is then something OTHER than what was agreed upon. Hence that would also be RIPE for another DFR against USAPA and the company (unless Judge Silver gives LCC a hall pass on liability).

Congratulations on the hiring for all of us. The remaining West furloughees that want to come back will come back in 2012 (IMHO), based on need. The pity is that had we stayed ALPA, we would all had perhaps 11% on top of the west wage AND enough VACATION TIME and contract improvements that NO ONE WOULD HAVE BEEN FURLOUGHED. On top of that, we would have been in contract negotiations for a SECOND post-merger contract NOW.

You said at dinner 4+ years ago that the courts will settle this. That unfortunately is true. Some of you are actually seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. What a terrible loss of money, time off and contract improvements that can NEVER be recaptured.

See you in CLT sometime. I'll buy a tank of gas for the 7GCBC, and you can try to make me sick.... 😀

CB aka D

I told you 4 years ago at dinner that this would take possibly 8 years or so to settle......how far off do you think I will be? PS...last month I worked 4 days (15 hours) and got paid for 81 hours. Weekends and Thanksgiving off this month. Life is good!

You better hurry back to CLT if you want that ride in the Citabria! I just did the annual on it on Monday and i'm gonna put it up for sale so I can buy another house. Hope you're doing well......lets grab dinner again soon.