US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Black Swan]

I think a lot of the true believers are starting to understand that it's a long way down over that cliff right in front of them.

I think a lot of true believers actually understand the fact you can never force the East to ratify anything, unless you have the numbers. And Cleary has served up a nice little "situation" for Leonidas. Have you become aquainted with the term REASONABLE? You need to.

 

[Injunction junction]

Nonsense. While disappointed at the lack of east integrity, I hate no one. Luv, Swanny, etc. Can yank gear for me anytime! Just paste a smile on your face and bring you good attitude.

Classic.

If you look at it that way maybe, however when you begin to count the dollars that have been given to management and seham these past few years that "good attitude" seems to fade and rather quickly.

Injunction

 

[Black Swan]

I see your point. She would effectively be telling the Company that they cannot be harmed by insisting on the NIC. This would translate over to the mediator for the JCBA who would reject USAPA's request to being released for self-help if negotiations ever make it that far. Not quite as satisfying as a full endorsement that a non-NIC is a DFR, but it would provide a level of relief sought by Management.

Cleary must be on the edge of the cliff right now. The LOA 93 decision is coming, his new legal team is encouraging a new round of mediations instead of showing confidence in a win on option 2 based on $eham's intentionally poor reading of the Ninth's ruling, serious financial problems with mounting legal bills and more court cases that USAPA can afford, and an election coming up. That's a lot of negatives for one pathological narcissist to deal with.

So you are telling us that Judge Silver, is now going to say they can insist on the Nicolau, when the 9th Court of Appeals, SF which is the superior court, and has already said this below, is going to be usurped by a lower judicial entity? This is the Aquaman Fantasy upon which he fundraises the uninformed.

8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

So we now have the West posters, insisting Silver is going to say it has to be Nicolau, but the 9th correctly interprets that not only may the FINAL PROPOSAL might not be the Nic. and ALSO, the West may not have the disadvantages they FEAR. Additionally, the final proposal is going to come from USAPA, not some judge. They clearly recognize where the lines are drawn, and the judge isn't the one telling a union what seniority they can propose. The 9th clearly gets it, and will make Silver the Desert Judge 2 if she makes them bring it to SF.
The East is getting the LOA 93 pay restoration, and this will be the final and binding reality that pushes the junior Nicolau Fantasy dream off the cliff- the other guys want the money out in PHX. Not only has Cleary end runned Leonidas, he is getting more money to do it.

 

[cynic]

So you are telling us that Judge Silver, is now going to say they can insist on the Nicolau, when the 9th Court of Appeals, SF which is the superior court, and has already said this below, is going to be usurped by a lower judicial entity? This is the Aquaman Fantasy upon which he fundraises the uninformed.

8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

So we now have the West posters, insisting Silver is going to say it has to be Nicolau, but the 9th correctly interprets that not only may the FINAL PROPOSAL might not be the Nic. and ALSO, the West may not have the disadvantages they FEAR.

Every time I read a post like this, I have to wonder about the mental competency of the person that posted it. They have to be either knowingly being deceitful or amazingly inept at basic reading comprehension.

Yes, IN THEORY, the company and USAPA may come to an agreement that does no harm to the west group and is not the Nic. IN REALITY, that is never going to happen. The USAPA position is DOH and nothing but DOH. That is not going to do less harm to the west group and everyone knows that. If USAPA were to come forward with a proposal that met the "less harm than Nic" standard of the 9th, then you might have a point. Oh, and if USAPA were to somehow come up with a proposal that did not harm the west group, it would be at the expense of the east group and they would most likely be filing their own DFR against the union.

 

[Black Swan]

AQUAMAN, how do you get around this?


9th Court of Appeals, San Francisco Ruling:


[8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

 

[Black Swan]

Every time I read a post like this, I have to wonder about the mental competency of the person that posted it. They have to be either knowingly being deceitful or amazingly inept at basic reading comprehension.

Yes, IN THEORY, the company and USAPA may come to an agreement that does no harm to the west group and is not the Nic. IN REALITY, that is never going to happen. The USAPA position is DOH and nothing but DOH. That is not going to do less harm to the west group and everyone knows that. If USAPA were to come forward with a proposal that met the "less harm than Nic" standard of the 9th, then you might have a point. Oh, and if USAPA were to somehow come up with a proposal that did not harm the west group, it would be at the expense of the east group and they would most likely be filing their own DFR against the union.

Wonder away. Because the big difference is I have a Federal Court in San Fran. that already RULED on it, and you have.........You, wondering.......

 

[Res Judicata]

All this makes nice window dressing, but the bottom line is, the West has no place to go but down and the East has no place to go but up (except the 517, for them it could get worse).

That being said, how would anyone think that a mediator would be able to dodge the bullet that USAPA cannot? Even if the mediator could find middle ground, there will certainly be at least one dissenter on one side or the other that will file a law suit and throw this thing back at the courts again.

This has the potential to go for many more years. Anyone that thinks there will be a win in the foreseeable future is kidding themselves.

There was a time when I thought middle ground could be found. That time has come and gone (IMO).

Driver B)

Au Contraire, this will effectively be OVER in April 2012 at the latest. Spoiler Alert!!!!!


The East gets crushed.

 

[luvthe9]

The East is getting the LOA 93 pay restoration, and this will be the final and binding reality that pushes the junior Nicolau Fantasy dream off the cliff- the other guys want the money out in PHX. Not only has Cleary end runned Leonidas, he is getting more money to do it.

This about sums it up, after this nobody cares about the west, get it.

 

[luvthe9]

Au Contraire, this will effectively be OVER in April 2012 at the latest. Spoiler Alert!!!!!


The East gets crushed.

I think you westies will be needing the CIRP long before April, your dead and don't even know it. If you're junior your going to stay junior.

 

[Res Judicata]

Wonder away. Because the big difference is I have a Federal Court in San Fran. that already RULED on it, and you have.........You, wondering.......

It's hard to tell if you're willfully this stupid or its unintended. Either way you sound like a sniffling, spoiled little bi**h. Why shouldn't you really? Youve spent your entire career "presenting" to whomever dominated you this week.

Don't worry. The ninth will save you. Just like "Seham Team Six"....remember?

 

[luvthe9]

It's hard to tell if you're willfully this stupid or its unintended. Either way you sound like a sniffling, spoiled little bi**h. Why shouldn't you really? Youve spent your entire career "presenting" to whomever dominated you this week.

Don't worry. The ninth will save you. Just like "Seham Team Six"....remember?

Wow, such emotion from a little boy, go take a 5 minute time out.

 

[Black Swan]

It's hard to tell if you're willfully this stupid or its unintended. Either way you sound like a sniffling, spoiled little bi**h. Why shouldn't you really? Youve spent your entire career "presenting" to whomever dominated you this week.

Don't worry. The ninth will save you. Just like "Seham Team Six"....remember?

Wow, did I hit a nerve. Cynic said I was deceitful, and now I am stupid and a bi### just because I quoted an ACTUAL court ruling that you don't like. The reality is your Aquaman Fantasy has just hit the wall, courtesy of Mike Cleary.

 

[Res Judicata]

Wow, did I hit a nerve. Cynic said I was deceitful, and now I am stupid and a bi### just because I quoted an ACTUAL court ruling that you don't like. The reality is your Aquaman Fantasy has just hit the wall, courtesy of Mike Cleary.

Your willful mis- representation of the facts is SOOOOOO 2009. Lee Shesham is OUT OF STYLE!! Get with the times!!! BTW, keep up the domicile updates that prove the case AGAINST mediation for us to present to Silver. Such timely and pertinent evidence. Wow! Thanks!

Calling you people idiots is an insult to the labotomized.

 

[CallawayGolf]

So you are telling us that Judge Silver, is now going to say they can insist on the Nicolau, when the 9th Court of Appeals, SF which is the superior court, and has already said this below, is going to be usurped by a lower judicial entity? This is the Aquaman Fantasy upon which he fundraises the uninformed.

8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

So we now have the West posters, insisting Silver is going to say it has to be Nicolau, but the 9th correctly interprets that not only may the FINAL PROPOSAL might not be the Nic. and ALSO, the West may not have the disadvantages they FEAR. Additionally, the final proposal is going to come from USAPA, not some judge. They clearly recognize where the lines are drawn, and the judge isn't the one telling a union what seniority they can propose. The 9th clearly gets it, and will make Silver the Desert Judge 2 if she makes them bring it to SF.
The East is getting the LOA 93 pay restoration, and this will be the final and binding reality that pushes the junior Nicolau Fantasy dream off the cliff- the other guys want the money out in PHX. Not only has Cleary end runned Leonidas, he is getting more money to do it.

That's exactly what I'm saying BS. The Ninth vacated and remanded based on lack of jurisdictional ripeness not on the merits. The failed to account for the TA which has very clear language requiring the ALPA merger policy to be used. The ripeness doctrine Silver has used doesn't have the same requirements because this is a DJ matter, not a DFR brought by the west pilots. She has thus already declared the DJ ripe and by direct implication affirmed the company's legal liability of accepting a non-NIC list. If a west collusion & contract breech lawsuit didn't have merit, it she would have granted USAPA's MTD. So the Ninth's opinion is woefully short of resolving this issue. What Silver rules on the DJ is outside of the constraints of the Ninth's ruling on Addington I.

Have you read the DJ filings and transcripts or or you just taking random guesses like you did when you claimed the company was days away from being split up along east/west lines? December 2nd isn't that far away, why don't you wait till that hearing is finished before you start trying to impose the Ninth's pathetic ruling on the DJ matter.

 

[Black Swan]

That's exactly what I'm saying BS. The Ninth vacated and remanded based on lack of jurisdictional ripeness not on the merits. The failed to account for the TA which has very clear language requiring the ALPA merger policy to be used. The ripeness doctrine Silver has used doesn't have the same requirements because this is a DJ matter, not a DFR brought by the west pilots. She has thus already declared the DJ ripe and by direct implication affirmed the company's legal liability of accepting a non-NIC list. If a west collusion & contract breech lawsuit didn't have merit, it she would have granted USAPA's MTD. So the Ninth's opinion is woefully short of resolving this issue. What Silver rules on the DJ is outside of the constraints of the Ninth's ruling on Addington I.

Have you read the DJ filings and transcripts or or you just taking random guesses like you did when you claimed the company was days away from being split up along east/west lines? December 2nd isn't that far away, why don't you wait till that hearing is finished before you start trying to impose the Ninth's pathetic ruling on the DJ matter.

So you say the following, what the court SAID, means nothing,and is PATHETIC and you know what they said. Congratulations, you are the 1600th member to join the Aquaman Fantasy Club!


F.2d 881, 883 (9th Cir. 1989) (emphasis in Streich)).
[5] We conclude that this case presents contingencies that
could prevent effectuation of USAPA’s proposal and the
accompanying injury. At this point, neither the West Pilots
nor USAPA can be certain what seniority proposal ultimately
will be acceptable to both USAPA and the airline as part of
a final CBA.

Wow, sounds like the 9th thought there might be some future MEDIATED talks! Were they on their game. Between spanking Wake, they not only clarified the issue LONG before Silver, and forsaw this new development, whatever it may result in.