US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

Well for me it doesn't matter, I'm otta here soon but you will be the lowest paid pilots in the country. Come on Mesa.

You do realize you're the lowest paid pilot in your seat right now, right?

And if you're outta here soon, that means youll retire that way too. LMAO!

 

[luvthe9]

I wouldn't mind the 330 but as long as it's based 5hours away from my home I couldnt give two schizz about flying it. I have a life out west that trumps any of your stupid air frames. That's true for most of us out here...something we've told you from day 1.

Ok, what ever you you like son..

 

[Move2CLT]

"Our" I dont remember seeing "bagchucker" on the paper work on any of the airplanes. Bags forward mail aft get back to work and worry about your job.

There you go Mikey! I knew you had it in ya.

 

[luvthe9]

Yo Move , hope you have a good Thanksgiving.!!!!

 

[prechilill]

I wouldn't mind the 330 but as long as it's based 5hours away from my home I couldnt give two schizz about flying it. I have a life out west that trumps any of your stupid air frames. That's true for most of us out here...something we've told you from day 1.

In five years the geezers will be falling like flies- we will inherit the big busses and have our pick. Time is on our side!

 

[cleardirect]

Wow, this guy has done more to damage you westies than anyone else, what an ego. Well again enjoy being the lowest paid and all that stagnation, we have heard form a lot of the more senior westies they are fed up with Ferguson, they seem to realize the situation.

We? Who is we? Are you one of the usapa leadership shilling on the web boards?

Once again I call you a bold face liar.

I spoke to one of the top 10 guys on the west list this week. His statement to me was that he is better off separate ops than getting a joint contract. Maybe you missed the filing that added 3 more senior guys to the class representatives.

No the senior, junior and everyone in between are behind getting the Nicolau shoved down your throats.

As Ferguson told Mike when he came begging hat in hand to DFW. NO!. No mediation, no deal. Pucker up buttercup and kiss the Nicolau because you are going to live with it. Learn to enjoy it.

 

[Beancounter]

Yes RIGHTFUL DOH POSITION, do you have a comprehension problem.

Well, I'm guessing that if your dad never taught you the difference between right and wrong it's probably a little too late now for me to lecture on it. The only response to that is,"no you can't have what is rightfully not yours and see you in court."

 

[Beancounter]

We? Who is we? Are you one of the usapa leadership shilling on the web boards?

Once again I call you a bold face liar.

I spoke to one of the top 10 guys on the west list this week. His statement to me was that he is better off separate ops than getting a joint contract. Maybe you missed the filing that added 3 more senior guys to the class representatives.

No the senior, junior and everyone in between are behind getting the Nicolau shoved down your throats.

As Ferguson told Mike when he came begging hat in hand to DFW. NO!. No mediation, no deal. Pucker up buttercup and kiss the Nicolau because you are going to live with it. Learn to enjoy it.

I won't comment on the Nicolau part, but I agree about the separate ops. We are far better off being separate for a while until the east is ready to truly move forward. Mediating something that has already been mediated and arbitrated is pretty darn funny though.

 

[cleardirect]

Wow, this guy has done more to damage you westies than anyone else, what an ego. Well again enjoy being the lowest paid and all that stagnation, we have heard form a lot of the more senior westies they are fed up with Ferguson, they seem to realize the situation.

We? Who is we? Are you one of the usapa leadership shilling on the web boards?

Once again I call you a bold face liar.

I spoke to one of the top 10 guys on the west list this week. His statement to me was that he is better off separate ops than getting a joint contract. Maybe you missed the filing that added 3 more senior guys to the class representatives.

No the senior, junior and everyone in between are behind getting the Nicolau shoved down your throats.

As Ferguson told Cleary when he came begging hat in hand to DFW. NO!. No mediation, no deal. Pucker up buttercup and kiss the Nicolau because you are going to live with it. Learn to enjoy it.

 

[Beancounter]

Beanboy. If your a reserve now get used to it because you will be there for most of the remaining years of your career. Whats this moving east crap, kid your going on the STREET not east. I think we all agree that phx will soon be history not shrinkage and you can go back to Mesa or Dads used car lot. I think you got your fingers in motion before your brain was in gear on that last sentence.... repeat for garble.

Yes, I agree a long time of reserve. On the street? We're close to fleet mins and the only way PHX is shrinking more is a joint contract, which means a position out east. Mesa, why do you think we all worked for Mesa? I got hired here with several thousand hours 121 PIC and check airman time. I never worked for Mesa. Dad's used car lot? My dad was a computer programmer who owned a company, now retired comfortably with a seven car garage and toys. I think LOA 93 is getting to you guys, you're getting real cranky. Repeat the last part. What are you a Marine?

 

[Move2CLT]

Yo Move , hope you have a good Thanksgiving.!!!!

You too boo boo!

 

[Beancounter]

I think you westies will be needing the CIRP long before April, your dead and don't even know it. If you're junior your going to stay junior.

I agree if we're junior we stay junior. I'm guessing that you understand it goes both ways and that is why you are holding up a combined list. It applies to you too. If you're junior you're going to stay junior.

 

[Move2CLT]

So here we have Cleary trying to stack the deck in USAPAs favor in prep for 12/2. He's going to use this meeting to show he wants to make an effort to settle this dispute going so far as to fly out to DFW.

With AoL sending him away with no deal, he will then tell the judge we are stonewalling.

Lame.

Here's Eric's account:


By now you have probably seen the USAPA President's message dated November 17th and entitled, “Our Seniority Dispute.” In this letter, Captain Cleary states:

“For these reasons, I have proposed to the Board of Pilot Representatives, and the BPR (with the Phoenix Representatives recusing themselves) has agreed, to direct our legal representatives in the Phoenix Declaratory Judgment to ask the Court to urge the parties -- the West Pilots and USAPA -- to enter into a process of mediation aimed at producing a mutually agreeable integrated seniority list.”

The response to this message from the pilots of Phoenix has already been a resounding, “NO!” If you are a former AWA pilot, there is no reason to expound on the many reasons why you feel this way. Also, please note there has been no rush on the part of Leonidas, LLC to respond to Mike Cleary's message. This is because we did not want to discourage the opinions of individual West pilots who might find Cleary's insincere “olive branch” of an offer even remotely appealing. At this point, I know of no former AWA pilot who would willingly choose to enter into the process Cleary outlines in his letter. As usual, there is more to the story than what Cleary communicated.

On Friday, October 14th, I received a personal call from Mike Cleary asking me to meet with him privately and in person. I said, “sure, but can I ask about the subject matter?” To this Mike replied that he would prefer to save that for our meeting, which I thought seemed reasonable enough. After all, there is certainly a wide array of topics about which Captain Cleary might wish to meet with me in person such as the RICO charges, the contrived “Identity Theft” allegations, trumped-up charges pending against me (and others) before the USAPA Appeal Board, additional West members for the NAC, or a possible merger with another carrier. The fact is that I just could not know the topic until he chose to disclose it to me in a face-to-face meeting. When I offered to travel to meet with him in Charlotte on the following Thursday, he said that would be later than he had hoped and that, instead, he could travel to Texas. We then decided to meet for lunch the following Tuesday morning.

On October 18th, I picked up Cleary curbside at DFW. We found an acceptable restaurant and proceeded to have a courteous and pleasant visit. We discussed a variety of topics- including sports and family- before the conversation turned to the primary reason for our meeting. In short, Captain Cleary asked whether or not we (“we,” as in the West pilot group) would be interested in voluntarily submitting to mediation to seek a seniority solution. I remained polite as I explained how (and why) I did not see this as a realistic option, and that how I, personally, would not be interested in participating. Nevertheless, I told Cleary that I would take his proffer of mediation to the Leonidas, LLC board and to the West pilots' attorneys to determine whether or not this would be a path that might interest the PHX pilots. In light of the extreme political risk I sensed Cleary was taking by even participating in a discussion of this nature, I avowed to him that I would not disclose the fact that we had met to anyone without an absolute need to know, and that if this information were to come to light, it would not be as a result of anyone on my team. Also, Cleary indicated that a timely decision about his offer would be helpful for everyone in getting to the end of our dispute. A quick answer was particularly necessary in light of the looming “Scheduling Conference” (then slated for December 1st), and the pressing need for USAPA to make related strategic decisions as well as determine which legal counsel would represent the association in these proceedings. I let him know that we would provide an answer as soon as possible.

Following our lunch, I then returned Cleary to the airport where he caught a flight back to Charlotte. I thanked him for his candor and for the pleasant lunch. It was soon thereafter that some of you saw Captain Cleary at DFW following our meeting (though nobody would have guessed that we had just met). News of Cleary being spotted at DFW almost immediately made its way onto the web boards, which seemed to stoke the AA merger rumors for a few days thereafter. No sooner than I had left DFW I began to make the necessary calls to discuss this offer with the Leonidas, LLC board, the West attorneys, and my fellow USAPA representatives from Phoenix.

After careful consideration and discussion with the West BPR reps, Leonidas, LLC board and our attorneys, we decided to reject Cleary's offer of mediation. On Friday, October 21st, I phoned Cleary to tell him that we had thoroughly debated the issue and that, for many reasons, we were going to “politely decline your offer.” In short, our response was, “thanks, but no thanks.” Obviously, and in light of Mike's recent letter, this message was received, but not comprehended. There had to be some rationale which drove Cleary to go through the trouble of traveling to Texas to ask me about mediation. He must have perceived me to be the leader of the former AWA pilots and as a figure with the authority to bind the West pilots in matters relating to the seniority dispute. However, based on his letter (and true to form), Cleary and his supporters are simply unable to accept “no,” (or anything else they do not want to hear) for an answer. Does this sound familiar? It ought to by now.

Nonetheless, and in spite of our response, the new lawyers for USAPA continued to press the West pilots (through our lawyers) to consider Mike's proposal. In addition, there were a couple of BPR meetings in the intervening weeks since our lunch date, and during each of these meetings, your PHX representatives made it crystal-clear to the BPR and officers that we could not, and would not accept an invitation to mediate. We stressed that doing so would only result in additional delay before getting a final ruling from the court in Phoenix, and, that even if forced to mediate, the West would yield nothing through the process. Every West pilot knows that we have positively nothing to give, and the East pilots have nothing to offer. The former AWA pilots almost unanimously feel that we cannot offer anything, and even if we could, we wouldn't. Since the moment we gave our decision to Cleary, the PHX representatives and I have taken every opportunity to inform the rest of the BPR that mediation would be a waste of time, effort, and money. At one recent BPR meeting our contingent even included Leonidas, LLC co-founder Jeff Koontz (standing in for David Braid) and, as always, Addington plaintiff Roger Velez. Everyone was well aware that they were hearing directly from people with influence in the matter. However, it is now clear that the remaining eight members of the BPR (since your PHX reps voluntarily recuse themselves from these decisions) have decided that they instead prefer to prolong the dispute, delay a contract, and continue to propagate the false hope of a seniority solution other than the Nicolau award by seeking to compel court-ordered mediation1 upon the West. These are the reasons I am now disclosing my heretofore “secret” meeting with Cleary.

It should be obvious just how hollow this offer to mediate really is. The evidence proves that this is nothing more than USAPA's last-ditch effort to make itself appear to be “the reasonable party” in Judge Silver's courtroom. It is a significant departure from the never-ending rhetoric in which USAPA has claimed total victory in its Date-of-Hire quest while promising its membership an imminent industry-standard contract with DOH. Why, now, the sudden urge to mediate? Contrast USAPA's reasonable-sounding offer to mediate with how, on the same day, USAPA published Cleary's “Our Seniority Dispute” message, the Negotiating Advisory Committee also published details of its “Comprehensive Proposal” which it presented to US Airways last week. Within the NAC's comprehensive proposal, you will find that the union's position on seniority remains its Date-of-Hire proposal from September 30th, 2008- that's right, the exact same proposal which the Addington jury found to violate USAPA's Duty of Fair Representation to the West pilots. USAPA's five-member, East-only Negotiating Advisory Committee2 did not even have the sense to place TBD (“to be determined”), or an asterisk, or a note in its proposal regarding seniority. This, is in spite of the fact that the company, NMB mediator, as well as the USAPA BPR and officers know that this is the exact subject of ongoing litigation and an imminent trial. Brilliant! How, by the way, is that mediation going for you, USAPA? Has it produced any tangible results after almost two years? The answer is a resounding “no,” so why would USAPA believe that mediating a seniority dispute that has already been negotiated, mediated, arbitrated and litigated now suddenly produce an acceptable result? The reason likely comes back to the fact that USAPA's leadership is simply unable to properly deal with the reality and facts which they find themselves facing.

This lingering dispute was unquestionably and exclusively created by the East pilots and their former legal counsel (Lee Seham) who rejected the Nicolau Award and then set about creating USAPA in order to avoid its implementation. Almost four years later, these same people now come to the West pilots attempting to have us fix the very problem they themselves created. In so doing they are asking the former AWA pilots to personally finance their “fix” through the dilution of the Nicolau Award, accept a concessionary contract in which only the East pilots gain, as well as asking us to validate all of the immoral steps they have taken to harm us along the way. Giving in now just because the East no longer feels confident as to the outcome of pending litigation would be akin to total capitulation. This would set an untenable precedent for generations to come. Again, the answer is, “no thanks!” We will never quit defending ourselves.

Let me be clear: The former AWA pilots may be intransigent, but we are not being unreasonable when we demand the results of Nicolau arbitration! We believe the Nicolau Award is BOTH fair and equitable, AND final and binding. We will not cease to assert our rights now just because that would be more convenient for USAPA.

As for me, and every AWA pilot I know, we will take our chances in court.

Please have a safe and excellent Thanksgiving holiday weekend.

Sincerely,

Eric Ferguson


1. While the court can order us to enter into a process and attempt to mediate our dispute, it cannot impose a result of the process if the result it is not mutually agreed upon by all parties to the mediation. The distinction between mediation and arbitration is important and critical to note.
2. I will not expound upon the numerous attempts your PHX representatives have made, even recently, to have a proper number of PHX-based pilots placed on the NAC. All of these efforts have been rejected by the BPR and the President of the Association so far. All of this is overwhelming evidence of USAPA's bad-faith toward the former AWA pilots and will come before the judge when appropriate and necessary in seeking to avoid court-ordered mediation.

 

[mrbreeze]

So here we have Cleary trying to stack the deck in USAPAs favor in prep for 12/2. He's going to use this meeting to show he wants to make an effort to settle this dispute going so far as to fly out to DFW.

With AoL sending him away with no deal, he will then tell the judge we are stonewalling.

Lame.

Here's Eric's account:


By now you have probably seen the USAPA President's message dated November 17th and entitled, “Our Seniority Dispute.” In this letter, Captain Cleary states:

“For these reasons, I have proposed to the Board of Pilot Representatives, and the BPR (with the Phoenix Representatives recusing themselves) has agreed, to direct our legal representatives in the Phoenix Declaratory Judgment to ask the Court to urge the parties -- the West Pilots and USAPA -- to enter into a process of mediation aimed at producing a mutually agreeable integrated seniority list.”

The response to this message from the pilots of Phoenix has already been a resounding, “NO!” If you are a former AWA pilot, there is no reason to expound on the many reasons why you feel this way. Also, please note there has been no rush on the part of Leonidas, LLC to respond to Mike Cleary's message. This is because we did not want to discourage the opinions of individual West pilots who might find Cleary's insincere “olive branch” of an offer even remotely appealing. At this point, I know of no former AWA pilot who would willingly choose to enter into the process Cleary outlines in his letter. As usual, there is more to the story than what Cleary communicated.

On Friday, October 14th, I received a personal call from Mike Cleary asking me to meet with him privately and in person. I said, “sure, but can I ask about the subject matter?” To this Mike replied that he would prefer to save that for our meeting, which I thought seemed reasonable enough. After all, there is certainly a wide array of topics about which Captain Cleary might wish to meet with me in person such as the RICO charges, the contrived “Identity Theft” allegations, trumped-up charges pending against me (and others) before the USAPA Appeal Board, additional West members for the NAC, or a possible merger with another carrier. The fact is that I just could not know the topic until he chose to disclose it to me in a face-to-face meeting. When I offered to travel to meet with him in Charlotte on the following Thursday, he said that would be later than he had hoped and that, instead, he could travel to Texas. We then decided to meet for lunch the following Tuesday morning.

On October 18th, I picked up Cleary curbside at DFW. We found an acceptable restaurant and proceeded to have a courteous and pleasant visit. We discussed a variety of topics- including sports and family- before the conversation turned to the primary reason for our meeting. In short, Captain Cleary asked whether or not we (“we,” as in the West pilot group) would be interested in voluntarily submitting to mediation to seek a seniority solution. I remained polite as I explained how (and why) I did not see this as a realistic option, and that how I, personally, would not be interested in participating. Nevertheless, I told Cleary that I would take his proffer of mediation to the Leonidas, LLC board and to the West pilots' attorneys to determine whether or not this would be a path that might interest the PHX pilots. In light of the extreme political risk I sensed Cleary was taking by even participating in a discussion of this nature, I avowed to him that I would not disclose the fact that we had met to anyone without an absolute need to know, and that if this information were to come to light, it would not be as a result of anyone on my team. Also, Cleary indicated that a timely decision about his offer would be helpful for everyone in getting to the end of our dispute. A quick answer was particularly necessary in light of the looming “Scheduling Conference” (then slated for December 1st), and the pressing need for USAPA to make related strategic decisions as well as determine which legal counsel would represent the association in these proceedings. I let him know that we would provide an answer as soon as possible.

Following our lunch, I then returned Cleary to the airport where he caught a flight back to Charlotte. I thanked him for his candor and for the pleasant lunch. It was soon thereafter that some of you saw Captain Cleary at DFW following our meeting (though nobody would have guessed that we had just met). News of Cleary being spotted at DFW almost immediately made its way onto the web boards, which seemed to stoke the AA merger rumors for a few days thereafter. No sooner than I had left DFW I began to make the necessary calls to discuss this offer with the Leonidas, LLC board, the West attorneys, and my fellow USAPA representatives from Phoenix.

After careful consideration and discussion with the West BPR reps, Leonidas, LLC board and our attorneys, we decided to reject Cleary's offer of mediation. On Friday, October 21st, I phoned Cleary to tell him that we had thoroughly debated the issue and that, for many reasons, we were going to “politely decline your offer.” In short, our response was, “thanks, but no thanks.” Obviously, and in light of Mike's recent letter, this message was received, but not comprehended. There had to be some rationale which drove Cleary to go through the trouble of traveling to Texas to ask me about mediation. He must have perceived me to be the leader of the former AWA pilots and as a figure with the authority to bind the West pilots in matters relating to the seniority dispute. However, based on his letter (and true to form), Cleary and his supporters are simply unable to accept “no,” (or anything else they do not want to hear) for an answer. Does this sound familiar? It ought to by now.

Nonetheless, and in spite of our response, the new lawyers for USAPA continued to press the West pilots (through our lawyers) to consider Mike's proposal. In addition, there were a couple of BPR meetings in the intervening weeks since our lunch date, and during each of these meetings, your PHX representatives made it crystal-clear to the BPR and officers that we could not, and would not accept an invitation to mediate. We stressed that doing so would only result in additional delay before getting a final ruling from the court in Phoenix, and, that even if forced to mediate, the West would yield nothing through the process. Every West pilot knows that we have positively nothing to give, and the East pilots have nothing to offer. The former AWA pilots almost unanimously feel that we cannot offer anything, and even if we could, we wouldn't. Since the moment we gave our decision to Cleary, the PHX representatives and I have taken every opportunity to inform the rest of the BPR that mediation would be a waste of time, effort, and money. At one recent BPR meeting our contingent even included Leonidas, LLC co-founder Jeff Koontz (standing in for David Braid) and, as always, Addington plaintiff Roger Velez. Everyone was well aware that they were hearing directly from people with influence in the matter. However, it is now clear that the remaining eight members of the BPR (since your PHX reps voluntarily recuse themselves from these decisions) have decided that they instead prefer to prolong the dispute, delay a contract, and continue to propagate the false hope of a seniority solution other than the Nicolau award by seeking to compel court-ordered mediation1 upon the West. These are the reasons I am now disclosing my heretofore “secret” meeting with Cleary.

It should be obvious just how hollow this offer to mediate really is. The evidence proves that this is nothing more than USAPA's last-ditch effort to make itself appear to be “the reasonable party” in Judge Silver's courtroom. It is a significant departure from the never-ending rhetoric in which USAPA has claimed total victory in its Date-of-Hire quest while promising its membership an imminent industry-standard contract with DOH. Why, now, the sudden urge to mediate? Contrast USAPA's reasonable-sounding offer to mediate with how, on the same day, USAPA published Cleary's “Our Seniority Dispute” message, the Negotiating Advisory Committee also published details of its “Comprehensive Proposal” which it presented to US Airways last week. Within the NAC's comprehensive proposal, you will find that the union's position on seniority remains its Date-of-Hire proposal from September 30th, 2008- that's right, the exact same proposal which the Addington jury found to violate USAPA's Duty of Fair Representation to the West pilots. USAPA's five-member, East-only Negotiating Advisory Committee2 did not even have the sense to place TBD (“to be determined”), or an asterisk, or a note in its proposal regarding seniority. This, is in spite of the fact that the company, NMB mediator, as well as the USAPA BPR and officers know that this is the exact subject of ongoing litigation and an imminent trial. Brilliant! How, by the way, is that mediation going for you, USAPA? Has it produced any tangible results after almost two years? The answer is a resounding “no,” so why would USAPA believe that mediating a seniority dispute that has already been negotiated, mediated, arbitrated and litigated now suddenly produce an acceptable result? The reason likely comes back to the fact that USAPA's leadership is simply unable to properly deal with the reality and facts which they find themselves facing.

This lingering dispute was unquestionably and exclusively created by the East pilots and their former legal counsel (Lee Seham) who rejected the Nicolau Award and then set about creating USAPA in order to avoid its implementation. Almost four years later, these same people now come to the West pilots attempting to have us fix the very problem they themselves created. In so doing they are asking the former AWA pilots to personally finance their “fix” through the dilution of the Nicolau Award, accept a concessionary contract in which only the East pilots gain, as well as asking us to validate all of the immoral steps they have taken to harm us along the way. Giving in now just because the East no longer feels confident as to the outcome of pending litigation would be akin to total capitulation. This would set an untenable precedent for generations to come. Again, the answer is, “no thanks!” We will never quit defending ourselves.

Let me be clear: The former AWA pilots may be intransigent, but we are not being unreasonable when we demand the results of Nicolau arbitration! We believe the Nicolau Award is BOTH fair and equitable, AND final and binding. We will not cease to assert our rights now just because that would be more convenient for USAPA.

As for me, and every AWA pilot I know, we will take our chances in court.

Please have a safe and excellent Thanksgiving holiday weekend.

Sincerely,

Eric Ferguson


1. While the court can order us to enter into a process and attempt to mediate our dispute, it cannot impose a result of the process if the result it is not mutually agreed upon by all parties to the mediation. The distinction between mediation and arbitration is important and critical to note.
2. I will not expound upon the numerous attempts your PHX representatives have made, even recently, to have a proper number of PHX-based pilots placed on the NAC. All of these efforts have been rejected by the BPR and the President of the Association so far. All of this is overwhelming evidence of USAPA's bad-faith toward the former AWA pilots and will come before the judge when appropriate and necessary in seeking to avoid court-ordered mediation.

This is great! The courts will love reading this letter.

1- Ferguson is on his own power trip....he is impressed that someone thinks he represents the West pilots.

2- He betrays his agreement with Cleary to keep their meeting to themselves.

3- He accuses the East pilots of causing this problem and how USAPA now wants them to help fix it....BS!

4- He basically states that come hell or high water, there is no way the West pilots will try to work something out to end this mess.

Thanks for posting this Move....good info for the courts.

BTW, I took you off ignore....someone has to keep an eye on you.

breeze

 

[prechilill]

4- He basically states that come hell or high water, there is no way the West pilots will try to work something out to end this mess.

breeze

I'm sorry breeze, the west pilots have no obligation to solve your problems. We are quite happy with our legal proceedings and look forward to the eventual conclusion years down the road. In the meantime, you know quite well how to solve your problems.