US Pilots Labor Discussion

[aquagreen73s]

You do realize that your attrition maxes out at 12-15 captains a month in '17-'19 don't you? Stick on LOA93 for all I care, my upgrade is imminent with West attrition which yields captain openings at a rate of 95% plus. Given the absolute ineptness and incompetence of USAPA to do anything right, many on the West are quite satisfied to stay with what we've gotten under ALPA. Next summer I have 28 days of vacation. I spend perhaps eight nights away from home while flying 90 hours a month thanks to PBS. My health insurance saves me thousands a year over yours. Even with the Nicolau, I don't see the need for a joint contract. 90% of the money in the pot was going to go exclusively to the East just to bring you up to parity, and then split 2:1 for the remaining 10%. That translates to a 3.33% share of the pot for the West in a joint contract. Forget it.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

We'll have a list and a lousy contract at some point. We'll travel a little farther along this path for a still indeterminate time frame, and then before we know it, there is the shitty contract none of us were going to ever vote for. The agreements we both work under are proof of what 'we' will vote for.

We're hosed on the next contract, I just don't think we can get our colletive act together in time to save ourselves from a lousy contract. And it'll happen despite all our protestations of what we'll never vote for.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

 

[Zone5]

I see all this as an attempt to find some way to get us a new contract. I know there are a great many west pilots that think if they can get a judge to say NIC must be used December that we will have a contract by April.

I think USAPA knows that at present considering every offer we have seen from the company and their public statements concerning how they "Cannot pay what American and Delta can" there is slim to no chance of gettting the east to vote yes on anything with NIC.

I am sure there are a few that might vote yes on something now, but their number appears to be so little as to not matter. I may be wrong and time will tell. But given what we see on the east I don't think so.

Parker CAN get a NIC voted in. But as I said before he is not willing to pony up the payrates that will do it. With what parker is willing to pay the majority of the east pilots feel they are better off keeping the attrition vs any token raise that they would see from Parker.

To get NIC to pass on the east (and I suspect by the west Captains) Parker will have to be paying something around 110 to 115 for F/O's on Busses which is close to Capt pay now, Bus Captains will have to be close to current widebody pay, and widebody will need to be on par with the other guys. Anything else will not cut it with all the attrition coming up once you consider the other factors suce as line vs reserve, wide body f/o vs narrow F/O, vacation, base bids for not commuting etc etc.

Just my opinion on what I see out there. Time will tell though.

Happy Thanksgiving

I think, you sir, are correct!

seajay

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I think, you sir, are correct!

seajay

I'm not so sure. On one level I think he is correct, and it sure sounds logical. I just can't get past the feeling that we will be outmaneuvered.

 

[aquagreen73s]

We'll have a list and a lousy contract at some point. We'll travel a little farther along this path for a still indeterminate time frame, and then before we know it, there is the shitty contract none of us were going to ever vote for. The agreements we both work under are proof of what 'we' will vote for.

We're hosed on the next contract, I just don't think we can get our colletive act together in time to save ourselves from a lousy contract. And it'll happen despite all our protestations of what we'll never vote for.

Sadly, you are right. Parker is lining the DJ up to accomplish exactly that outcome.

 

[Zone5]

You do realize that your attrition maxes out at 12-15 captains a month in '17-'19 don't you? Stick on LOA93 for all I care, my upgrade is imminent with West attrition which yields captain openings at a rate of 95% plus. Given the absolute ineptness and incompetence of USAPA to do anything right, many on the West are quite satisfied to stay with what we've gotten under ALPA. Next summer I have 28 days of vacation. I spend perhaps eight nights away from home while flying 90 hours a month thanks to PBS. My health insurance saves me thousands a year over yours. Even with the Nicolau, I don't see the need for a joint contract. 90% of the money in the pot was going to go exclusively to the East just to bring you up to parity, and then split 2:1 for the remaining 10%. That translates to a 3.33% share of the pot for the West in a joint contract. Forget it.

WOW, seven whole days a year more vacation! Let's see, what should I be willing to give up for that? Not much!

90 hours a month! How many West pilots are on furlough? Never mind, if you don't seem to care, why should I? Maybe you could invite a few of them over for some turkey today.

seajay

 

[Keroseneuser]

You do realize that your attrition maxes out at 12-15 captains a month in '17-'19 don't you? Stick on LOA93 for all I care, my upgrade is imminent with West attrition which yields captain openings at a rate of 95% plus. Given the absolute ineptness and incompetence of USAPA to do anything right, many on the West are quite satisfied to stay with what we've gotten under ALPA. Next summer I have 28 days of vacation. I spend perhaps eight nights away from home while flying 90 hours a month thanks to PBS. My health insurance saves me thousands a year over yours. Even with the Nicolau, I don't see the need for a joint contract. 90% of the money in the pot was going to go exclusively to the East just to bring you up to parity, and then split 2:1 for the remaining 10%. That translates to a 3.33% share of the pot for the West in a joint contract. Forget it.

You made part of my point for me. Clearly you as a senior west F/O feel that anything we have seen so far is not worth the NIC. With fully 1/3 of the active east list junior to the bottom west F/O under NIC, and the rest of the east taking a pretty hefty hit under NIC they feel exactly the same as you do. They feel they are better off keeping the attrition that they have. Even for a large number of the ones that wont upgrade in the next few years with east attrition NIC potentially means the difference between F/O on widebody or narrow, line holder or reserve, x mas off or not, etc.

For 1/3 of the active east list NIC is nothing but bad, for the middle to upper seniority NIC is mostly all bad. The only ones that really would do well under a NIC and the current offers we have seen is the top 517 on the NIC list, of which a sizable group is already retired.

Again when it comes time to vote in a contract by the current active membership, nobody cares what was going on in 2005. East and West will vote what is best for them now. General statement....West F/o's are a yes, east F/o's are a no. West Captains are a "depends on where I am on the list", east Captains are "Depends on where I am on the list, and how many I have retiring in front of me in next few years".

I don't think Parker has any intention of offering anything remotly close to what it would take to get a joint NIC list voted in.

 

[Move2CLT]

I see all this as an attempt to find some way to get us a new contract. I know there are a great many west pilots that think if they can get a judge to say NIC must be used December that we will have a contract by April.

Not one west pilot thinks a Nic will be forced. We never have.

But what we do think is that you guys will vote it in with our help. Your captains are greedy as they've all been so. Parker puts something on the tab,e that's ok and you'll have your greedy captains, your bottom end FO's, and the west voting a yes on it.

You guys will, ironically, vote the Nic in.

 

[mrbreeze]

And for christ's sake, if your sister is brain dead, or dead, stay off the damn boards for more than a week out of respect for her. And if not for her, do it for me.

How I mourn my sister is none of your business and, also, I will NEVER do anything for you. You are just an easy target that I can take my frustrations out on.

As far as lying about quiting these boards, our little "time out" was educational.....I actually learned something about how this system works, whereas, an adolescent like you probably just got pissed that the moderators corrected you.

Drop the subject of my sister right now...she has nothing to do with how you and I spar on this board.

breeze

 

[Keroseneuser]

Not one west pilot thinks a Nic will be forced. We never have.

But what we do think is that you guys will vote it in with our help. Your captains are greedy as they've all been so. Parker puts something on the tab,e that's ok and you'll have your greedy captains, your bottom end FO's, and the west voting a yes on it.

You guys will, ironically, vote the Nic in.

The bottom end f/o's will never vote on a NIC with anything we have seen. Token raise and have to wait for all west guys to upgrade before them. Or current rates and upgrade sooner, with better bidding power, equipment, and not on reserve as long. No matter how you slice it fully 1/3 of the east list has ZERO upside in a NIC situation. Even for the guy on the bottom of the f/o east list there is no upside to NIC. Take current attrition and upgrade for bad pay, or have 700 west guys jump in front of them and lose current attrition for bad pay. Good pay i dont think is an option with current mgmt. Not good enough to outweigh the bad part of the NIC. All you have to do is look at the current list to see how important not being on reserve or not commuting is to these guys. We have loads of F/o's that CAN hold Captain now but are NOT bidding it. They would rather have the quality of schedule and not have to commute to reserve than make a few extra bucks.

The greedy captains as you term it are now in the miniority and getting less everyday. Say the April time line for a NIC court forced situation is correct, then we have a minimum of a year or more of fighting with the company for some decent T/A, all the while attrition continues on the east at the fasteset pace this airline has ever seen. By the time anything with NIC gets out to vote there are a fairly large number of Captains that in effect would be voting themselves back to the right seat by saying yes. More than likely we are 3 or more years away from seeing a T/A best case. Even more Captains that would be voting themselves back to the right seat.

If this were still 2005 lists I would agree with you. It's not, and the west position gets weaker by the day as we go forth from here. On top of that I suspect there are a lot of West Captains or close to Captain that feel they would take a QOL hit under NIC as well and wont do it for anything that Parker has to offer. Even several west posters here have said that.

I may be reading the east guys wrong, but I don't think so. The number of east guys completly hosed by NIC is at 1/3 of the total list now and getting larger by the day, a huge number of the guys that are only somewhat hurt by NIC is small and getting smaller everyday. Roughly 1/3 of the top of the list is 60+ right now, many are 63 or more. By the time any potential NIC list gets out for a vote I don't think they are still going to be here. Basically the 1/3 of the east active completly hosed by NIC out numbers the total west f/o's by over 100 and getting larger. The very senior east 517 are probably down to the 200 to 250 or less range by now (have not counted, rough estimate using retirement numbers from 2005 till age 65 kicked in) Some east will vote YES on a NIC.....but then again some West will vote NO on a NIC as well. Bottom line, My opinion at present sitiuation and what we have seen from the company. NIC T/A is unpassable at this time and for the forseeable future unless the company backs the moneybag dumptruck up to the negotiating table.

 

[Move2CLT]

You actually think the new hires and reserve FO's won't in a new contract with better pay and reserve?

Please.

And there are enough greedy captains to vote in a new contract with 1800 west pilots.

 

[Reed Richards]

The only ones that really would do well under a NIC and the current offers we have seen is the top 517 on the NIC list, of which a sizable group is already retired.

Any numbers on how many of the original 517 are gone? "Sizable" group?

No proof, but my move up the big list in the last 4 years says otherwise.

So far the only way anyone seems to leave this property is on a medical or termination (both the Company initiated and the "casket" kind.) Yikes!

RR

 

[Reed Richards]

And there are enough greedy captains to vote in a new contract with 1800 west pilots.

1800 voting PHX pilots?

What do you have, maybe 1100 MIGS? Don't you have 500 or so who were not even ALPA members?

RR

 

[Claxon]

1800 voting PHX pilots?

What do you have, maybe 1100 MIGS? Don't you have 500 or so who were not even ALPA members?

RR

They will never get the numbers the western think they have. The eastern pilots will never take the western proposal that denies them the upgrades to the larger equipment. The Franke Air disciples have again miscalculated. They are excellent at that. Not only do they not have the voting members they think, they grossly miscalculate how stupid their ideas about the eastern pilots are. The Lenidas leadership takes their money easily, yet delivers nothing but legal bills. Extremely sad. Their ripeness debacle tells a lot about their own leadership, and the quality of their legal staff. Pathetic.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

You actually think the new hires and reserve FO's won't in a new contract with better pay and reserve?

If those you name, the new hires and reserve FO's, had five years or less, would they not be locked into basically the same pay and benefits? What, pray tell, would they gain whereas staying separate gives them five years of attrition allowing them to move up?

Let me see here, two years of reserve or, with the nicholau, seven or more years on reserve.

I don't know, it seems pretty clear to me, ... that you are full of wishful thinking.