US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Dont be so stupid, look beyond the walls of your doublewide. Clt and Phl wont, cant expand much If, no when phx goes the way of las something has to happen to those airframes. Your contract has no protection for when this happens. You can take t/a's, fleet mins, and anything else your little pea brain can think up and stick it where the sun dont shine when phx shuts down. You are street bound and not wall street, I cant wait to say " told you so". Remember those seats actually belong to the east.

You ignored my questions.

What has changed except Cleary begging for the west to fix his problem that PHX would close and the company would ignore the T/A?
What will usapa do to live up to their DFR duty of protecting contracts/T/A and the west pilots???????

Why would PHX close?

If PHX closes the company must be in some serious trouble. What kind of contract do you think you would get? Improved or BK?

Now I know you and the east pilots have no integrity but do try and keep up with your own lies. You have all said that you want nothing from the west. PHX brought aircraft, seats and career expectations. But here you say that if PHX closes those were really eastie seat and even the PHX seat belong to you.

Your true colors come out. Thieves. You want everything but we are not going to let you have anything.

 

[luvthe9]

Dont be so stupid, look beyond the walls of your doublewide. Clt and Phl wont, cant expand much If, no when phx goes the way of las something has to happen to those airframes. Your contract has no protection for when this happens. You can take t/a's, fleet mins, and anything else your little pea brain can think up and stick it where the sun dont shine when phx shuts down. You are street bound and not wall street, I cant wait to say " told you so". Remember those seats actually belong to the east.

That's right! I forgot the west doesn't have any protection for this. No wonder they are begging for a contract as fast as they can sell it. Why should you guys get any NAC members? You took the bankruptcy rate for the 330's and had no provision for more pay for the 321 s and 757 s. Your contract actually sucks.

 

[Move2CLT]

That's right! I forgot the west doesn't have any protection for this. No wonder they are begging for a contract as fast as they can sell it. Why should you guys get any NAC members? You took the bankruptcy rate for the 330's and had no provision for more pay for the 321 s and 757 s. Your contract actually sucks.

An eastie judging someone else's contract?!?!

Thank you. And that's after I watch some of USAPA's old road show vids on youTube. Here is a line from one that made me crap my pants because I laughed so hard:

March 2008

Q: What's Plan B if the company doesn't accept a DOH list?

A: We don't need a Plan B.

LMFAO! I guess they do now. B as in begging.

 

[Keroseneuser]

One more time for the slow learners. The east own numbers guy Rick Salamat said the longest anyone has to wait under the Nicolau is TWO years not your fear mongering 7 or more. You are fibbing by 5 years.

Ok, one more time for you. We were discussing the possibility of getting a NIC T/A voted in.

The 2 year number you stated was a 2005 number. It DOES NOT include 800+ pilots that are active on the property right now. All with a vote. 1/3 of the active east pilot list.

For those 800+ the 5 year or more number is pretty accurate.

You can go and ask these guys if they would kindly not vote since they were either furloughed or not hired in 2005. I bet they tell you to go pound sand since they DO NOT CARE what the situation was in 2005, they WILL vote what they feel is best for them. And since NIC puts them junior to every single west pilot they are going to vote no unless Parker comes up with a dumptruck load of money. Anything we have seen yet wont do it. For them it is more than upgrade, it means the difference between reserve or line, holidays off or not, 190 or bus while they are waiting on the upgrade.

Every newhire class that comes on the property just adds to the 800+ that could care less what the situation was in 2005. The situation is such a mess now that a pilot hired today and placed on the east would automatically be inclined to vote no on anything with NIC in it. Since by being placed on the east he will see the benefits of the east attrition. In fact, for any pilot on the east hired after 2005 (CEL list, newhire s etc) he is better off if the two groups never combine, since he is straight DOH and any combined list automatically puts him under 1800 west pilots when he goes to bid that he is NOT bidding against today.

East has been adding pilots for the last 6 or 7 months, and if the word from training dept. is accurate they are geared up to hire 50 a month starting in January. Time will tell on that one.

For 1/3 of the active east pilot list the numbers are simple for them. Over the next 9 years the east is retiring 1749 pilots, the west is retiring 422. In 15 years it is 2728 east to only 785 west.

If you were one of those 800+ guys junior to every single west pilot which way would you vote? By 2020 1749 guys in front of you retiring, OR vote yes on a NIC T/A to put 422 more retirements in the mix from the west AND add 1800 more in front of you at bidding time? In fact by 2020 there will only be 800 pilots left on the east list that are NOT one of the current 800+ stapled by NIC. Bt 2025 the only east pilots left WILL be the 800+ we are speaking of.

Once again, Doug CAN get them to vote yes on a NIC.....But I don't think he is willing to put up enough money to do it. It is not in his best interest. If he does come up with enough money then yay for all of us. I just dont see it happening from this mgmt.

 

[aquagreen73s]

You can go and ask these guys if they would kindly not vote since they were either furloughed or not hired in 2005. I bet they tell you to go pound sand since they DO NOT CARE what the situation was in 2005, they WILL vote what they feel is best for them.

As will everyone else, and that's exactly why a Nic will pass on the East hands down. The bottom part of the East list will probably be the holdouts to the very end, but they're grossly outnumbered by the aging pilots who are looking at pocketing an extra 50K a year for the remaining years left. That's the problem you true believers face on the East, and it's exactly why the AFO club has done everything in their power to stop a contract from being voted on. Because YOU KNOW it will pass.

 

[Rookie Jr]

That's right! I forgot the west doesn't have any protection for this. No wonder they are begging for a contract as fast as they can sell it. Why should you guys get any NAC members? You took the bankruptcy rate for the 330's and had no provision for more pay for the 321 s and 757 s. Your contract actually sucks.

I don't recall anyone from the west begging for a contract. We know ucrapa will gut ours to give more to the east and aren't in any hurry for that. Hey, how do you guys feel about your "union" president begging the west to mediate DOH? Must really hurt you to see your "leadership" willing to back down off of "the gold standard" What about your CB&L's? I guess he's willing to can those as well.

Don't worry. Our side has flatly and unequivocally refused to mediate. We are well aware that the end game is here and are perfectly willing to wait for the court's decision. The direction of things to come may well be indicated just a few short days from now. Good luck with the Kasher decision as well. I am sure that your side will get exactly what you deserve.

If, however, the east does not get everything they consider themselves entitled to just what is "the plan B"? I am dying to know what the men of genius have up their sleeves. Looking forward to the next few weeks.

 

[Keroseneuser]

As will everyone else, and that's exactly why a Nic will pass on the East hands down. The bottom part of the East list will probably be the holdouts to the very end, but they're grossly outnumbered by the aging pilots who are looking at pocketing an extra 50K a year for the remaining years left. That's the problem you true believers face on the East, and it's exactly why the AFO club has done everything in their power to stop a contract from being voted on. Because YOU KNOW it will pass.

As an east guy that is where I think AOL is flawed in its approach to this. From what I am seeing they have grossly underestimated how the "aging" pilots feel about this. You will get some yes vote, but from what I see and hear on the line it would not be many. Unless Doug comes up with a lot more money. In many cases NIC would keep the "aging" pilots off the widebodies, or keep them commuting to a narrowbody spot, or reserve. The amount of people we have on the east that can hold Captain now but are not bidding it is a much larger number than I would have thought. I think that points to how some of the aging pilots prefer QOL over money. Even in my case I don't have any bids in for anything other than my home base. I have decided that I will not commute for this company anymore. I could hold a better paying position if I commuted today, but the QOL would suffer. And while no spring chicken i cannot be lumped into your "aging" catagory

The real irony to this is that by next december there will be 759 pilots here that would not have been here had the age 60 rule not changed. That would have gone a long way to fixing our issues we have now.

I think a yes vote on NIC if it were taken today would be hard to get. From here on out every day it goes on will just make it that much harder to get. If the court battle continue past next year, I think it will be next to impossible to get unless there is a lot of money on the table.

Age 65 in 2012=8 2013=144 2014=201 etc etc. By 2017 the retirement numbers climb to around 250 a year out to 2025. Already there are many dropping out due to medicals or death. It seems that making 65 and still holding a medical is challenging.

For a group that has seen stagnation for around 20 years and beat on by several mgmt teams, even the modest number of averaging 12 leaving a month in 2013 is huge, and grows from there. Slapping guys hired in 1998 and 99 in front of guys hired in 1985 and 86 who never sat a day of furlough in their career and telling them they have to finish their career up on reserve or miss out on the last couple of years on a widebody is not sitting well with them. Far more than AOL thinks from what I see.

I would welcome a nice industry standard contract. Problem is Doug has zero intention of ever offering such a thing. So we are where we are.

 

[aquagreen73s]

As an east guy that is where I think AOL is flawed in its approach to this. From what I am seeing they have grossly underestimated how the "aging" pilots feel about this. You will get some yes vote, but from what I see and hear on the line it would not be many.

Run the numbers. Not many on the East are needed to pass a Nicolau. That's yet another example how incredibly dumb the East has been since the Nicolau came out. Getting rid of separate ratification paved the way to the Nicolau.

 

[crazystnic]

Run the numbers. Not many on the East are needed to pass a Nicolau. That's yet another example how incredibly dumb the East has been since the Nicolau came out. Getting rid of separate ratification paved the way to the Nicolau.

there will be no vote anyways, there is nothing close to being put on the table... it's irrelivant.

but either way I think you are wrong.. You don't realize how many Captains I fly with who are getting screwed by the NIC as well.

 

[Move2CLT]

there will be no vote anyways, there is nothing close to being put on the table... it's irrelivant.

but either way I think you are wrong.. You don't realize how many Captains I fly with who are getting screwed by the NIC as well.

Call Eric F and ask him just how many east Captains call him a day.

They call him more than they call their own reps.

 

[luvthe9]

Call Eric F and ask him just how many east Captains call him a day.

They call him more than they call their own reps.

Call Mike Cleary and ask him just how many west Captains call him a day.

They call him more than they call their own reps.

 

[luvthe9]

Problem is Doug has zero intention of ever offering such a thing. So we are where we are.

West pilots are to stupid to understand this, hey next road how about one of you westies ask Parker that question, indusrty standard contract for a combined list, would love to see his answer.

 

[Barrister]

there will be no vote anyways, there is nothing close to being put on the table... it's irrelivant.

but either way I think you are wrong.. You don't realize how many Captains I fly with who are getting screwed by the NIC as well.

Thank you...that is what I have been trying to tell em....just won't listen.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[aquagreen73s]

there will be no vote anyways, there is nothing close to being put on the table... it's irrelivant.

but either way I think you are wrong.. You don't realize how many Captains I fly with who are getting screwed by the NIC as well.

When Doug decides to step up and negotiate directly with the pilots (when's election time???), watch the feeding frenzy on the East. Got popcorn?

 

[Move2CLT]

Call Mike Cleary and ask him just how many west Captains call him a day.

They call him more than they call their own reps.

Nonsense luv. Cleary barely speaks to you east guys. He sure as hell doesn't converse with a line pilot on the west.

Eric is honorable.

Cleary? Not so much.