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US Pilots Labor Discussion

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Reread the 9th. No judge in this country is ready to rerwite labor law and can not force a union to violate their own bylaws. ...

luvthe9 said:
This just about sums it all up and with a LOA93 win, well you can figure it out.
Click to expand...
Really! If you are so sure of that why did Cleary come begging to the west pilots to make a deal. If you are correct and in the right why not get to the court quickly and let judge Silver finish this?

Why did usapa delay their schedule out until November 2012 if usapa is right?

Got answers?
 
cleardirect said:
That is a lot of words to justify going to a carrier to be a captain in order to hurt fellow pilots.

There is only one thing that needs to be said about this.

ALPA your union at the time told the members not to go to Freedom. Crimi violated that because he wanted to jump ahead of someone else. He ignored his union and you justify his actions.


What no comment on your mistake about the "sizable" number of top 517 that have retired?
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Thats the point. I have no idea about Crimi, only met him a couple times. But the pilot i was talking about that appears on the list, was indeed told in print from ALPA that there was no problem with going to Freedom. It was only after he was there that the official ALPA policy changed. By then, he was on the list.

Regarding the other item. I stated that I had not specifically looked up the numbers. The conversation was in regards to being able to get a NIC T/A voted in. On the current list we have 108 of the top 517 out on medical leave. When you look at the actual active list on the bids we only have 367 of the current top 517 flying. thats 150 missing from the jan 11 list. In addition we have roughly 2.5 years of normal age 60 retirement off the NIC 517 from 2005 till the age change to 65. So my rough numbers of 250 or so for all intents and purposes gone is close.

How might someone out on indefinate medical leave view this situation and how might they vote? Who knows. However for the active guys, there are a lot of guys flying very senior positions on widebodies and holding the top 10% of lines on everything else that would fare pretty bad in a NIC seniority list..as far as their bidding power is concerned for equipment, base and QOL.

As an east pilot, the story AOL is telling you about how the east will vote is NOT what we on the east are feeling. As far as I know there are no USAPA officers posting on here, just a bunch of line pilots and everybody is saying the same thing....NIC is unpassable with any offer we have seen, or even hinted to by managment. They do NOT want to pay what it would take to get a NIC T/A passed.

Really though I think this discussion is a moot point. The courts will take another few years, and Parker is in no rush to increase his labor costs. By the time we see what can get voted in and what can't, a huge number of the east is going to be gone anyhow and out fishing or basketweaving or whatever it is that they like to do on retirement. The only guys that will make out good on this disaster are the guys that are getting hired tomorrow. they are the ones coming into a pilot group of 5200 with 3513 retirements in the next 15 years.
 
Keroseneuser said:
Thats the point. I have no idea about Crimi, only met him a couple times. But the pilot i was talking about that appears on the list, was indeed told in print from ALPA that there was no problem with going to Freedom. It was only after he was there that the official ALPA policy changed. By then, he was on the list.

Regarding the other item. I stated that I had not specifically looked up the numbers. The conversation was in regards to being able to get a NIC T/A voted in. On the current list we have 108 of the top 517 out on medical leave. When you look at the actual active list on the bids we only have 367 of the current top 517 flying. thats 150 missing from the jan 11 list. In addition we have roughly 2.5 years of normal age 60 retirement off the NIC 517 from 2005 till the age change to 65. So my rough numbers of 250 or so for all intents and purposes gone is close.

How might someone out on indefinate medical leave view this situation and how might they vote? Who knows. However for the active guys, there are a lot of guys flying very senior positions on widebodies and holding the top 10% of lines on everything else that would fare pretty bad in a NIC seniority list..as far as their bidding power is concerned for equipment, base and QOL.

As an east pilot, the story AOL is telling you about how the east will vote is NOT what we on the east are feeling. As far as I know there are no USAPA officers posting on here, just a bunch of line pilots and everybody is saying the same thing....NIC is unpassable with any offer we have seen, or even hinted to by managment. They do NOT want to pay what it would take to get a NIC T/A passed.
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Your numbers are just wrong. If you had not looked at the numbers maybe you should not have made the statement. I find that happens a lot with you guys. Making bold statements as if they are fact.

R.Fogarty was number 517. On the December 2011 bid 83 394 R.M.FOGARTY was seniority number 394 not 367.

Now we add in the footnote from the Nicolau award.

Reinserting the pilots extracted from the top of the list brings the
total number to 517 rather than 423. However, more than 70% of that
difference is made up of pilots on long-term medical leave and of
those most have been on such leaves for more than two years.
Click to expand...

So that means 94 were on long term and probably never coming back Leaving 423 active pilots. With Fogarty now being number 394. 423-394 leaves. 29 active pilots leaving from the protected top 517. Are you still going to call that "sizable"? Less than 6 a year. Is that the powerful attrition you guys are all waiting for? If so you are going to be waiting a long time.

BTW long term med does not get to vote.
 
Any one of you blind supporters want to answer this? If you guys are right and the ninth really told us that usapa is correct and they can use whatever seniority list they want. Why is usapa delaying the win?

This is from the latest filing gin the AZ case. Proposed joint schedule.

Expert witnesses
Company
West None required
Usapa April 30, 2012 How much is that going to cost?

Rebuttal witnesses
C
W None required
U June 1, 2012

Expert witness reply
C
W None required
U June 29, 2012

Discovery
C
W None required
U July 27, 2012

Supplemental discover
C
W None required
U Aug 17, 2012

Dispositive motions
West wants January 12, 2012, oppositions by Feb 20, 2012 reply by March 9, 2012

Usapa wants to start September 21, 2012

Settlement progress report
C
W None required. Mediation is a waste of time.
U May 15, 2012

Pretrial order
C
W Set by the court but both sides are asking for summary judgment.
U November 15, 2012. That means usapa wants to go to trial but not until sometime in 2013.

Answer this boys. The company and the west pilots want this to summary judgment by April 2012. If you are right why is usapa delaying a trial until 2013? Instead of asking for summary judgment quickly if you guys are correct about the law?

Who is wasting more money? The company and the west that want a quick summary judgment and no experts or the union delaying for more than a year demanding a trial and experts?

Are you guys sure of your position on the law or not?
 
cleardirect said:
Reread the 9th. No judge in this country is ready to rerwite labor law and can not force a union to violate their own bylaws. ...


Really! If you are so sure of that why did Cleary come begging to the west pilots to make a deal. If you are correct and in the right why not get to the court quickly and let judge Silver finish this?

Why did usapa delay their schedule out until November 2012 if usapa is right?

Got answers?
Click to expand...
"Come begging" a little to dramactic. How about strategy, you soon begin to figure this all out.
 
Move2CLT said:
Like being enjoined? Keeping you under LOA93? Looking for compromise? Bankrupting your union?

Did I miss anything?
Click to expand...

Let me ask you this. Why would your Captains be opposed to a DOH and a raise and fences protecting PHX and their Captains seat?

I cannot think of any reasons other than not being able to commute 5 hours to fly to europe.

Would be interesting to see how a DOH T/A vote would come out on the west at this point. As interesting as a NIC vote would be on the east. I am betting an industry standard DOH vote with above protections has just as good a chance at passing as the west thinks a NIC vote would on the east.

Thinking both USAPA and AOL leadership is afraid to put either out on a vote.
 
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