US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Keroseneuser]

As the sole bargaining representative, USAPA could have and still can change it's proposal at any time. So the question remains - why hasn't it done so if it's serious? One could certainly come to the conclusion that this "offer" is nothing but another delay tactic...

Jim

Ah, the crux of the matter. At present we have both sides using the same tactics. USAPA can delay a long long time thru the courts and their oh so speedy procedures. And AOL can do the same with a DFR threat. So we go nowhere.

From a line pilot point of view how about this. Chop both USAPA and AOL out of the picture for a minute.

Say we discuss what might be able to be voted in. Take the two lists as they are today(Active). Combined we have around 3400 retiring in the next 15 years. Slot them in roughly 3 east to 1west all the way down(or however the active numbers work out). Protect all current seats capt and f/o nobody can be pushed out of their current seat by a pilot of the opposing side, Then present a unified front to the company and negotiate a decent contract that includes base protections to prevent draw down of PHX as some on the west have expressed concern about. If we get some of the long term medical guys back just slot them in wherever they would have been added.

After that let the large attrition run its course. This could pass on the east and would eliminate the 800 automatic NO votes from the 1/3 of the east group that is currently facing a staple job, and it still gives the west group access to the east huge attrition coming up.

Obviously there are a million other factors to be tweaked in this scenario, but speaking from a can it be passed point of view. I bet it could. I don't see the east having much of a problem with it, i don't see a huge amount of the west Captains having an issue with it. Probably the main whiners about such a thing would be the most junior west F/o's and some of the east senior capts and F/o's that may be held off a widebody for a bit.

Thats probably as close as we can possibly get to resolving the issues we have now and avoid another 6 years just like the last 6 years. Had the original NIC list included the the guys furloughed as a direct result of 9/11 instead of stapleing them with the above listed protections we would not be where we are now. The combined list would not have the huge 10 and 15 year hire date disparities and attrition issues that seems to be the root of all the problems.

Ahhh, wait for it....about now is when we get a dozen pissed off posts about NIC,DOH,DFR,Kasher,Wake,Silver,Addington,member size,ALPA,USAPA,AOL,LOA93, and what color to paint the dining room!!!!

 

[aquagreen73s]

Let me ask you this. Why would your Captains be opposed to a DOH and a raise and fences protecting PHX and their Captains seat?

Because there is no way to fence off your industry high CASM from the East.

 

[flybynite]

I like the part about what color to paint the dining room 🙂 so funny

 

[nic4us]

So,,another week has gone by,,,even though it was a short holiday week,,and still no Kasher decision.

Man, I think for my next job I am going to be an arbitrator. What an easy gig. Find two parties in dispute, listen to dispute, tell them you will sove their dilema in a fair manner, then just go on vacation for two years with the quarter million they gave you.

Then wait for the first of the two parties to complain about how long it is taking, wait another 6 months and rule against that party. Where do I sign up?

 

[flybynite]

Ah, the crux of the matter. At present we have both sides using the same tactics. USAPA can delay a long long time thru the courts and their oh so speedy procedures. And AOL can do the same with a DFR threat. So we go nowhere.

From a line pilot point of view how about this. Chop both USAPA and AOL out of the picture for a minute.

Say we discuss what might be able to be voted in. Take the two lists as they are today(Active). Combined we have around 3400 retiring in the next 15 years. Slot them in roughly 3 east to 1west all the way down(or however the active numbers work out). Protect all current seats capt and f/o nobody can be pushed out of their current seat by a pilot of the opposing side, Then present a unified front to the company and negotiate a decent contract that includes base protections to prevent draw down of PHX as some on the west have expressed concern about. If we get some of the long term medical guys back just slot them in wherever they would have been added.

After that let the large attrition run its course. This could pass on the east and would eliminate the 800 automatic NO votes from the 1/3 of the east group that is currently facing a staple job, and it still gives the west group access to the east huge attrition coming up.

Obviously there are a million other factors to be tweaked in this scenario, but speaking from a can it be passed point of view. I bet it could. I don't see the east having much of a problem with it, i don't see a huge amount of the west Captains having an issue with it. Probably the main whiners about such a thing would be the most junior west F/o's and some of the east senior capts and F/o's that may be held off a widebody for a bit.

Thats probably as close as we can possibly get to resolving the issues we have now and avoid another 6 years just like the last 6 years. Had the original NIC list included the the guys furloughed as a direct result of 9/11 instead of stapleing them with the above listed protections we would not be where we are now. The combined list would not have the huge 10 and 15 year hire date disparities and attrition issues that seems to be the root of all the problems.

Ahhh, wait for it....about now is when we get a dozen pissed off posts about NIC,DOH,DFR,Kasher,Wake,Silver,Addington,member size,ALPA,USAPA,AOL,LOA93, and what color to paint the dining room!!!!

Sounds reasonable to me.....🙂

 

[nic4us]

Ah, the crux of the matter. At present we have both sides using the same tactics. USAPA can delay a long long time thru the courts and their oh so speedy procedures. And AOL can do the same with a DFR threat. So we go nowhere.

From a line pilot point of view how about this. Chop both USAPA and AOL out of the picture for a minute.

Say we discuss what might be able to be voted in. Take the two lists as they are today(Active). Combined we have around 3400 retiring in the next 15 years. Slot them in roughly 3 east to 1west all the way down(or however the active numbers work out). Protect all current seats capt and f/o nobody can be pushed out of their current seat by a pilot of the opposing side, Then present a unified front to the company and negotiate a decent contract that includes base protections to prevent draw down of PHX as some on the west have expressed concern about. If we get some of the long term medical guys back just slot them in wherever they would have been added.

After that let the large attrition run its course. This could pass on the east and would eliminate the 800 automatic NO votes from the 1/3 of the east group that is currently facing a staple job, and it still gives the west group access to the east huge attrition coming up.

Obviously there are a million other factors to be tweaked in this scenario, but speaking from a can it be passed point of view. I bet it could. I don't see the east having much of a problem with it, i don't see a huge amount of the west Captains having an issue with it. Probably the main whiners about such a thing would be the most junior west F/o's and some of the east senior capts and F/o's that may be held off a widebody for a bit.

Thats probably as close as we can possibly get to resolving the issues we have now and avoid another 6 years just like the last 6 years. Had the original NIC list included the the guys furloughed as a direct result of 9/11 instead of stapleing them with the above listed protections we would not be where we are now. The combined list would not have the huge 10 and 15 year hire date disparities and attrition issues that seems to be the root of all the problems.

Ahhh, wait for it....about now is when we get a dozen pissed off posts about NIC,DOH,DFR,Kasher,Wake,Silver,Addington,member size,ALPA,USAPA,AOL,LOA93, and what color to paint the dining room!!!!

Here is an idea,

Lets re-order the list so that the closer you are to retirement, the nearer the bottom you are, that way nobody will care about the attrition.

No bump..no flush...of course.

That is a joke.......

Carry on.

 

[Move2CLT]

Ah, the crux of the matter. At present we have both sides using the same tactics. USAPA can delay a long long time thru the courts and their oh so speedy procedures. And AOL can do the same with a DFR threat. So we go nowhere.

From a line pilot point of view how about this. Chop both USAPA and AOL out of the picture for a minute.

Say we discuss what might be able to be voted in. Take the two lists as they are today(Active). Combined we have around 3400 retiring in the next 15 years. Slot them in roughly 3 east to 1west all the way down(or however the active numbers work out). Protect all current seats capt and f/o nobody can be pushed out of their current seat by a pilot of the opposing side, Then present a unified front to the company and negotiate a decent contract that includes base protections to prevent draw down of PHX as some on the west have expressed concern about. If we get some of the long term medical guys back just slot them in wherever they would have been added.

After that let the large attrition run its course. This could pass on the east and would eliminate the 800 automatic NO votes from the 1/3 of the east group that is currently facing a staple job, and it still gives the west group access to the east huge attrition coming up.

Obviously there are a million other factors to be tweaked in this scenario, but speaking from a can it be passed point of view. I bet it could. I don't see the east having much of a problem with it, i don't see a huge amount of the west Captains having an issue with it. Probably the main whiners about such a thing would be the most junior west F/o's and some of the east senior capts and F/o's that may be held off a widebody for a bit.

Thats probably as close as we can possibly get to resolving the issues we have now and avoid another 6 years just like the last 6 years. Had the original NIC list included the the guys furloughed as a direct result of 9/11 instead of stapleing them with the above listed protections we would not be where we are now. The combined list would not have the huge 10 and 15 year hire date disparities and attrition issues that seems to be the root of all the problems.

Ahhh, wait for it....about now is when we get a dozen pissed off posts about NIC,DOH,DFR,Kasher,Wake,Silver,Addington,member size,ALPA,USAPA,AOL,LOA93, and what color to paint the dining room!!!!

How about the crux of the matter is we already negotiated, mediated,, and arbitrated.

Why do it again?

 

[Move2CLT]

No...I'm not high you dim wit!

Just because you don't have a bloody list doesn't prevent you from negotiating other areas of your contract. Such as rigs!!!

Your seniority list is one area that has been tabled until such time you can get one. It has no bearing on other areas of your contract that needs improvement. If you believe other wise....then you are being played by the company...🙂

I take it you haven't seen USAPAs amazing comprehensive proposal.

Pretty much gave away the farm in exchange for DOH.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Why do it again?

Because it is now one month away from 2012, and we are exactly where we were in 2005, so obviously we screwed it up the first time. Basically we have 2 remaining problems from the last decade...Afghanistan and USAirways merger. The main difference is we are making a bit of progress in Afghanistan.

 

[Move2CLT]

Because it is now one month away from 2012, and we are exactly where we were in 2005, so obviously we screwed it up the first time. Basically we have 2 remaining problems from the last decade...Afghanistan and USAirways merger. The main difference is we are making a bit of progress in Afghanistan.

And what's different? You wanted DOH before and you still want it now despite the arbitration award. We don't want DOH and we don't want C & Rs.

Nothing has changed other then the process has been completed.

If you want to move this forward then accept the Nic award.

And by "we" I assume you mean you and the rest of your east buddies, right?

 

[A320 Driver]

I take it you haven't seen USAPAs amazing comprehensive proposal.

Pretty much gave away the farm in exchange for DOH.

I wouldn't consider $190+/hr for an A320 Captain exactly giving away the farm. That, for you, would be close to a $40/hr raise, would it not?


Driver B)

 

[luvn737s]

While you guys have pissed around over this one issue for how many years now??? What have you done with your other contract improvements? Work rules? Rigs? Vacation? Sick time?

I want to know if you've done a damn thing and if not....it's time to get off the pot!!!

I know you can table the seniority issuse for a while but what have you done for all of the other issues???

USAPA has traded all of it's potential negotiating capital in order to delay any contract proposal that would interrupt their land grab (aka attrition). The company knows that USAPA has no leverage, so they will beg for the scraps Parker offers in lieu of actual negotiation and representation.

That's the union the east wanted. They even built a little wooden coffin for pilot labor, remember?

 

[luvn737s]

What happened to the transparent union you guys wanted?

Amazing you have nothing to say about the president on his own without informing anyone changing the direction of the union. But you have a problem with someone informing the membership that the president did it.

What else has the president done without permission or informing the membership about? Why did Cleary want to keep it secret?

Why didn't Ferguson bring the PHX reps with him? For that matter, the entire BPR should have had a chance to see what the Cockroach had in mind.

 

[cleardirect]

clear,

Certain events will unfold in the coming weeks that will have your head spinning. Cleary is so many steps ahead of you and your buddies. Anger is a terrible thing!

Hate

No Cleary is a couple laps down and is about to be passed again. It just appears that he is ahead.

 

[cleardirect]

As usual, you are off base once again! If it was so 'clear' we wouldn't be in this situation to begin with. I love it however when you are so definitive on what will and will not happen. Don't you ever learn from your screw ups? Your crystal ball has been broken for 15 years. You need to get your 'sources' to provide a new one. Reread the 9th. No judge in this country is ready to rerwite labor law and can not force a union to violate their own bylaws. Silver would love to rule against USAPA, like Wake but will find herself in the same dilemma if she tries to do so. This will not be decided any time soon by any court and at best will drag on for years; possibly through the ninth and supreme courts again if necessary. Even the ninth understood that the only way this will ever be resolved is through negotiation and it is likely that Silver understands this as well. Even then nothing can ever be 'forced' on anyone due to the requirment for a majority vote; hence the stalemate. But hang in there with your 'clear' understanding of labor law. Maybe you will be offered a job as a clerk when you lose your job next time...

V

Go back and listen to the oral arguments from the ninth. One of the questions from Graber was what if a union were to write an a provision that places all women junior to all men. Sehams answer was the union would just ignore it!

If not using an arbitration is found to be illegal usapa will ignore it.

Also you need to read the usapa C&BL a little closer. Where does it say that DOH is required?