US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

Yes. If mediation proceeds, I suspect it will most likely be offered along with a few other goodies. I see no reason that the "harm" perceived by the West, cannot be adequately addressed by a DOH based contract incorporating REAL C&R's to protect both sides' career expectations and avoid windfalls to all.

A mediated, JCBA, ratified by a majority of BOTH West and East pilots, would constitute a steep hill to climb by a DFR attempt from either side of the Mississippi.

The olive branch has been offered up, the West reaction will not be well received by the Judge.

seajay

What do you think the reaction from the judge will be when it is explained usapa wants to mediate an arbitration. the same arbitration that east pilots are rejecting. Why would you east pilots live with mediation?

What will the judge say when the company and the west say no.

What will the judge say when usapa says it has to be DOH. Nothing to mediate.

 

[Zone5]

Shove it. See you in court.

I suppose so.

You're not a lawyer are you? You have been on here talking about how all this is going to be settled by the courts soon. Do you really believe that? To encourage others to believe so and continue the legal process, would be the desired goal of an attorney.

seajay

 

[cleardirect]

Section 8: Objectives: D. To maintain uniform principles of seniority based on date of hire and the perpetuation thereof, with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations.

Unless you are trying to rewrite their constitution, I think you would have a tough time trying to say it's not required.

Also, in regards to the DFR issue; all of the pilots, including you would have another DFR if they did not follow this basic premise.

V

You do understand the difference between objective and requirement right

 

[Res Judicata]

I suppose so.

You're not a lawyer are you? You have been on here talking about how all this is going to be settled by the courts soon. Do you really believe that? To encourage others to believe so and continue the legal process, would be the desired goal of an attorney.

seajay

By April, USAPA's already immensely deep hole they're in is going to get immeasurably deeper. They can either accept the ruling and move on with a nic inclusive contract or they can appeal and waste another year at poverty wages. I don't care either way. USAPA holds NO CARDS here and the contractual delays are crushing the East...now some of you nut jobs are flying out to phoenix to embarrass yourselves at the PHX crew news like that bible thumping, incoherent nut case.

Less than two weeks away to Watch USCABA get destroyed in court. Can't wait.

 

[Zone5]

What do you think the reaction from the judge will be when it is explained usapa wants to mediate an arbitration. the same arbitration that east pilots are rejecting. Why would you east pilots live with mediation?

What will the judge say when the company and the west say no.

What will the judge say when usapa says it has to be DOH. Nothing to mediate.

I get the impression that USAPA's offer to enter mediation is not an attempt to re-hash the past arbitration but moreover to start over with a blank piece of paper, so to speak, and address the SLI in the context of today, vice one man's opinion based on his crystal ball view six years ago.

Much has changed in the last six years, bases have closed, furloughs have returned or not, the fleet has evolved further, the industry has significantly consolidated and through it all the company has enjoyed "discounted" pilot costs.

I submit that a six year old ALPA PID doesn't mean dick today. Certainly not in the context of today and figuring out how to move forward in the best interests of all USAirways pilots. Too much has changed. Too much time has been squandered. Too much money has been spent on lawyers. Too much effort has been wasted on the blame game. Too much is at stake, today.

Many will call it a do over and I can understand that position. Some will call it an attempt at moving forward in the present with the future for all at stake.

It's not a matter of "living" with mediation. The goal of a future mediation is a ratified JCBA (ratified by a majority of both pilots factions) so a majority of all pilots would be deciding to live with the results.

Who knows how any Judge will view any legal question, they are lawyers to and make a living off of controversy also. All the more reason to decide these matters amongst ourselves, had we committed to doing so six years ago, it would be a done deal by now.

seajay

 

[prechilill]

I get the impression that USAPA's offer to enter mediation is not an attempt to re-hash the past arbitration but moreover to start over with a blank piece of paper, so to speak,

i.e. "I want a do-over, maybe best two out of three"

 

[Code Name V]

You do understand the difference between objective and requirement right

No. Why don't you explain it to me. And use small words will few syllables please.

V

 

[cleardirect]

I get the impression that USAPA's offer to enter mediation is not an attempt to re-hash the past arbitration but moreover to start over with a blank piece of paper, so to speak, and address the SLI in the context of today, vice one man's opinion based on his crystal ball view six years ago.

Much has changed in the last six years, bases have closed, furloughs have returned or not, the fleet has evolved further, the industry has significantly consolidated and through it all the company has enjoyed "discounted" pilot costs.

I submit that a six year old ALPA PID doesn't mean dick today. Certainly not in the context of today and figuring out how to move forward in the best interests of all USAirways pilots. Too much has changed. Too much time has been squandered. Too much money has been spent on lawyers. Too much effort has been wasted on the blame game. Too much is at stake, today.

Many will call it a do over and I can understand that position. Some will call it an attempt at moving forward in the present with the future for all at stake.

It's not a matter of "living" with mediation. The goal of a future mediation is a ratified JCBA (ratified by a majority of both pilots factions) so a majority of all pilots would be deciding to live with the results.

Who knows how any Judge will view any legal question, they are lawyers to and make a living off of controversy also. All the more reason to decide these matters amongst ourselves, had we committed to doing so six years ago, it would be a done deal by now.

seajay

Everything that you are talking about is POST merger. Now you want to redo the seniority list based on todays situation.

Are you willing to also mediate the Trump/ Piedmont/ PSA seniorty list? Things have changed. Bases have closed, retirements and attrition.

Does your logic hold?

How are we going to meditate seniority when usapa's position is it has to be DOH because our C&BL says it is? What you really want to mediate is C&R not seniority. You are aksing us to accept the same list that you demanded 6 years ago and no one has agreed to.

No we told you years ago the court will settle this. We told you at Wye river the Nicolau is the list. We told Cleary the Nicolau is the list. We are told the company the Nicolau is the list. We are telling the court the Nicolau is the list.

What are you guys not understanding? Simple concept. Why would the court waste time ordering mediation when usapa started with a hard line position of DOH? She has read the transcripts and know usapa will never come off DOH. Why waste several months using the usapa schedule of updating the court in MAY. To find out that mediation is going nowhere. Just to start the process of a trial that usapa does not want until 2013.

No let's get to the main event. Let the court decide. If you guys are so sure of what the ninth told you let it work. Let the judge agree with the ninth and tell us all that usapa is free to negotiate. Why the delay, why does usapa want to make a deal?

No do over, no mediation, no deals.

 

[Zone5]

By April, USAPA's already immensely deep hole they're in is going to get immeasurably deeper. They can either accept the ruling and move on with a nic inclusive contract or they can appeal and waste another year at poverty wages. I don't care either way. USAPA holds NO CARDS here and the contractual delays are crushing the East...now some of you nut jobs are flying out to phoenix to embarrass yourselves at the PHX crew news like that bible thumping, incoherent nut case.

Less than two weeks away to Watch USCABA get destroyed in court. Can't wait.

And the beat goes on. You avoided my question, are you a lawyer? Based on your last response, I would guess no. While on the one hand you certainly seem dedicated to continuing the current legal process, on the other hand a lawyer would tend to respond in a less emotionally charged manner. At least as long as the clients checks kept clearing the bank.

As long as this issue stays in the legal realm, the only thing we all count on is that movement will not occur quickly, more like glacially, as is the preferred pace of "Team Tempe" and all the lawyers.

seajay

 

[aquagreen73s]

As long as this issue stays in the legal realm, the only thing we all count on is that movement will not occur quickly, more like glacially, as is the preferred pace of "Team Tempe" and all the lawyers.

You're wrong. This will move through Judge Silver's court pretty quickly. The union controlled by the East will get its a$$ handed to it, refuse to accept the ruling, appeal, wash rinse spin. It's not the courts that's the problem. It's not the West that's the problem. And dare I say it's not even the company that's the problem.

 

[eastcoast]

The olive branch has been offered up, the West reaction will not be well received by the Judge.

seajay

Do you really believe that anyone outside of our union, let alone a judge, would not see this "olive branch" for what it really is? - A thinly veiled attempt to appear reasonable after years of unreasonableness and outright offense against 1/3 of the pilots the union is bound to represent fairly, while creating more delay. Even if they DID see it as a genuine attempt (not likely), it does not erase years of history (ie: evidence) to the contrary.

And mediation will go nowhere unless it is agreed to by the company and the west. There is no reason anyone would believe that mediation will bear any result. That's the problem. Our union has used up its negotiating capital. In fact it is operating at severe trust deficit.

Section 8: Objectives: D. To maintain uniform principles of seniority based on date of hire and the perpetuation thereof, with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations.

While I agree that the principles are clearly written in our CBL, I disagree that our CBL is written in legal stone and trumps all other matters of fairness and legal jurisdiction. Plus I think you are making the same mistake many have been making since the 9th's ruling. You are selectively interpreting the part you want, while ignoring the rest. Selective snippets if you will. Try emphasizing the word OBJECTIVES, which precedes subsection D, and the meaning changes. If the union tries to obtain DOH but fails, it still pursued its objectives without violating anything in the CBL.

 

[Zone5]

Everything that you are talking about is POST merger. Now you want to redo the seniority list based on todays situation.

Are you willing to also mediate the Trump/ Piedmont/ PSA seniorty list? Things have changed. Bases have closed, retirements and attrition.

Does your logic hold?

How are we going to meditate seniority when usapa's position is it has to be DOH because our C&BL says it is? What you really want to mediate is C&R not seniority. You are aksing us to accept the same list that you demanded 6 years ago and no one has agreed to.

No we told you years ago the court will settle this. We told you at Wye river the Nicolau is the list. We told Cleary the Nicolau is the list. We are told the company the Nicolau is the list. We are telling the court the Nicolau is the list.

What are you guys not understanding? Simple concept. Why would the court waste time ordering mediation when usapa started with a hard line position of DOH? She has read the transcripts and know usapa will never come off DOH. Why waste several months using the usapa schedule of updating the court in MAY. To find out that mediation is going nowhere. Just to start the process of a trial that usapa does not want until 2013.

No let's get to the main event. Let the court decide. If you guys are so sure of what the ninth told you let it work. Let the judge agree with the ninth and tell us all that usapa is free to negotiate. Why the delay, why does usapa want to make a deal?

No do over, no mediation, no deals.

That's exactly what I am saying. The past completed mergers you mention are just that, done, history, in the record books.......good, bad or indifferent. Shall we stay focused on today, I think that would be in all our best interests.

As previously noted, a DOH "based" SLI agreement based on our circumstances TODAY which in the opinion of a majority of BOTH pilot groups adequately addresses the concerns of BOTH factions TODAY is a worthy goal which deserves a serious effort by all to attempt to achieve.

Are you sure you want to go "all in" with a litigated resolution? That didn't work to well under ALPA merger policy for the East. If you loose, at the end of the day, there could be even less opportunity to mitigate the West concerns, certainly a lot less leverage than you would have today in a mediation process.

"No we told you years ago the court will settle this. We told you at Wye river the Nicolau is the list. We told Cleary the Nicolau is the list. We are told the company the Nicolau is the list. We are telling the court the Nicolau is the list." I get it, the Judge will probably get it also, doesn't mean the Judge(s) will ultimately agree with you. Just don't delude yourself that it's not possible to ultimately loose, it's always a possibility.

The only sure way to achieve an acceptable solution for the majority of all, is for the pilots to negotiate one ourselves.

seajay

 

[Code Name V]

I think you can interpret the phrase "principles of seniority based on date of hire" a number of ways. And I think Cleary has begun doing so in his mediation letter. Longevity is based on DOH. Even reasonable slotting which protects longevity is based on DOH.

It all falls within a wide range of reasonableness.

And does the Nicalou list fall within a wide range of reasonableness which protects longevity based on DOH? If not, I don't see how it could possibly conform to the principles stated in the Bylaws. Conditions and Restrictions however can be conformed to do so and do follow the bylaws.

Again, I don't think any of it matters as the west has repeatedly given us a 'shove it up your ass' attitude and as far as I know, that also doesn't follow a wide range of reasonableness...

V

 

[BLT]

Yes. If mediation proceeds, I suspect it will most likely be offered along with a few other goodies. I see no reason that the "harm" perceived by the West, cannot be adequately addressed by a DOH based contract incorporating REAL C&R's to protect both sides' career expectations and avoid windfalls to all.

A mediated, JCBA, ratified by a majority of BOTH West and East pilots, would constitute a steep hill to climb by a DFR attempt from either side of the Mississippi.

The olive branch has been offered up, the West reaction will not be well received by the Judge.

seajay

I think the judge is wise enough to see that your olive branch is actually a steaming pile of cow manure.

 

[aquagreen73s]

As previously noted, a DOH "based" SLI agreement based on our circumstances TODAY which in the opinion of a majority of BOTH pilot groups adequately addresses the concerns of BOTH factions TODAY is a worthy goal which deserves a serious effort by all to attempt to achieve.

You've learned NOTHING over the last four years.

Enjoy LOA93, because you'll be on it for quite some time.