US Pilots Labor Discussion

[electricjet98]

I think you can interpret the phrase "principles of seniority based on date of hire" a number of ways. And I think Cleary has begun doing so in his mediation letter. Longevity is based on DOH. Even reasonable slotting which protects longevity is based on DOH.

It all falls within a wide range of reasonableness.

You DOH (a static date) is used to determine your seniority number (a dynamic number), which is most certainly not your DOH. While longevity is based on DOH, it is commonly "adjusted" during a merger for various LOA's and furloughs. Slotting during a merger uses the seniority numbers (remember...not your DOH) for each of the merging parties, with the various DOH's ONLY being used to determine the seniority numbers at the respective groups. Your seniority number is exactly that...a dynamic number, not a date.

 

[luvthe9]

You've learned NOTHING over the last four years.

Enjoy LOA93, because you'll be on it for quite some time.

Hey, AQUAMAN FANTASY we have been making more than you since 12/31/09, I'm alright with that for now son. Sure hope your not sold off in the next transaction. 😀 I heard we (the east) are going to be hiring 30 a month for quite a while. Stagnation sucks .

 

[Zone5]

You're wrong. This will move through Judge Silver's court pretty quickly. The union controlled by the East will get its a$$ handed to it, refuse to accept the ruling, appeal, wash rinse spin. It's not the courts that's the problem. It's not the West that's the problem. And dare I say it's not even the company that's the problem.

It wouldn't be the first time I have been wrong. As far as anything moving "pretty quickly" through the courts, good luck with that! The outcome of the DJ proceedings in Judge Silver's court will just be one more "Y" shaped stone on a long, long path.

The quickest (and cheapest) way to achieve consensus regarding an acceptable SLI agreement, to a majority of both factions, is through negotiation. Always has been the case and always will be.

I do agree with you that it's not the company's "problem", it's their continuing "wet dream" come true!

seajay

 

[aquagreen73s]

Hey, AQUAMAN FANTASY we have been making more than you since 12/31/09, I'm alright with that for now son. Sure hope your not sold off in the next transaction. 😀 I heard we (the east) are going to be hiring 30 a month for quite a while. Stagnation sucks .

I'll compare my W2 with any reserve A320 captain on the East. Unless they're breaking guarantee every month, we're within a few thousand of each other. Those are the facts. I've done it more than once with your 320 captains on the jumpseat. The look on their faces says it all.

LOA93 is killing the East.

 

[Zone5]

Do you really believe that anyone outside of our union, let alone a judge, would not see this "olive branch" for what it really is? - A thinly veiled attempt to appear reasonable after years of unreasonableness and outright offense against 1/3 of the pilots the union is bound to represent fairly, while creating more delay. Even if they DID see it as a genuine attempt (not likely), it does not erase years of history (ie: evidence) to the contrary.

And mediation will go nowhere unless it is agreed to by the company and the west. There is no reason anyone would believe that mediation will bear any result. That's the problem. Our union has used up its negotiating capital. In fact it is operating at severe trust deficit.



While I agree that the principles are clearly written in our CBL, I disagree that our CBL is written in legal stone and trumps all other matters of fairness and legal jurisdiction. Plus I think you are making the same mistake many have been making since the 9th's ruling. You are selectively interpreting the part you want, while ignoring the rest. Selective snippets if you will. Try emphasizing the word OBJECTIVES, which precedes subsection D, and the meaning changes. If the union tries to obtain DOH but fails, it still pursued its objectives without violating anything in the CBL.

An agreement to mediate would be between both pilot factions. The company's presence would not be required or desired, after all they have already stated that they do not care how we agree to solve the SLI issue. If, a Section22 agreement were reached, ratified by both factions and presented to the company, we would at least know who the 800 pound gorilla really is.

To reject the offer of mediation out of hand based on past performance or acts of perceived unreasonableness is counterproductive. What do we have to loose, more time? Would that be more time than the current course of ligation will take?

seajay

 

[cleardirect]

It wouldn't be the first time I have been wrong. As far as anything moving "pretty quickly" through the courts, good luck with that! The outcome of the DJ proceedings in Judge Silver's court will just be one more "Y" shaped stone on a long, long path.

The quickest (and cheapest) way to achieve consensus regarding an acceptable SLI agreement, to a majority of both factions, is through negotiation. Always has been the case and always will be.

I do agree with you that it's not the company's "problem", it's their continuing "wet dream" come true!

seajay

We already negotiated. We mediated. Finally we arbitrated.

The quickest way to settle this is for you east guys to live up to your first agreement and not try and make different deal.

We could not agree the first time. Why would you think we could agree this time when usapa comes with the same pile of crap DOH list you brought the last time?

 

[cleardirect]

No. Why don't you explain it to me. And use small words will few syllables please.

V

There are no words small enough for you to understand.

Just like you do not understand the difference between longevity and seniority.

 

[aquagreen73s]

My God, you've learned NOTHING over the last four years!

An agreement to mediate would be between both pilot factions.

So....USAPA represents the East faction. Do you even understand what you just admitted?

The company's presence would not be required or desired,

It's their lawsuit. How on Earth does a company lawsuit addressing their liability translate into a mediation between the co-defendants? Answer: it doesn't, which is why Cleary's latest ploy is a farce and not aimed at settling anything.

If, a Section22 agreement were reached, ratified by both factions and presented to the company, we would at least know who the 800 pound gorilla really is.

Now you're proving you know nothing about jurisdiction. Ratification is reserved to the NMB's jurisdiction, not a federal judge. A federal judge determines what is legal and not legal according to the law; something the NMB cannot do. There is nothing that will be "ratified" in Judge Silver's court any more than in Judge Wake's or in Judge Conrad's.

To reject the offer of mediation out of hand based on past performance or acts of perceived unreasonableness is counterproductive.

Why? It's simply a rejection to something which is not possible in the first place. Don't believe us? Silver will tell you the same thing shortly.

What do we have to loose, more time? Would that be more time than the current course of ligation will take?

seajay

Time is not a problem or concern on the West.

 

[eastcoast]

Shall we stay focused on today, I think that would be in all our best interests.

This habit of speaking for everyone must stop. Define "all." I don't think focusing on today is in the west pilots best interest. Should we ask them? What about Empire? Shuttle? It's convenient to say today is all that matters. But there is little difference between your idea of re-negotiating an arbitration, and renegotiating an SLI of years past. Saying 'the past is done and this is not' is only a point of view. One the court is being asked to clarify. The west seem to think THIS SLI is done. The Company is not sure, but its obvious which way they are leaning, which is why they are asking a judge.

As previously noted, a DOH "based" SLI agreement based on our circumstances TODAY which in the opinion of a majority of BOTH pilot groups adequately addresses the concerns of BOTH factions TODAY is a worthy goal which deserves a serious effort by all to attempt to achieve.

We already DID negotiate. Our union's idea of negotiation didn't exactly work out. That's the point of arbitration. When negotiation fails it is the last resort. I remember many on our side who wanted to rush to arbitration, skipping the entire negotiating phase, so we could get on with the inevitable DOH SLI. The only difference is that today WE are in a better position than we were 5 years ago, DUE to the merger. Sounds pretty convenient to say, now all our furloughs are back and all our guys have moved up a bit at the expense of our west counterparts... lets have a do-over. I find it ludicrous to think anyone on their legal footing would subject themselves to another round of negotiation given our collective history.

I get it, the Judge will probably get it also, doesn't mean the Judge(s) will ultimately agree with you. Just don't delude yourself that it's not possible to ultimately loose, it's always a possibility.

Of course anything is possible. But given the cards they hold, and the cards we hold thanks to our union representation, there is almost no incentive for them to fold.

The only sure way to achieve an acceptable solution for the majority of all, is for the pilots to negotiate one ourselves.

seajay

Seajay, the only solution for US is to negotiate. The problem is that we made sure there is no one left to negotiate with. That ship has sailed. You and I both know that we could have forced a solution acceptable to a majority long ago since we had the majority for some time. The only question left is whether or not that solution (one other than Nic) is legal. We'll have that answer soon enough.

The quickest (and cheapest) way to achieve consensus regarding an acceptable SLI agreement, to a majority of both factions, is through negotiation. Always has been the case and always will be.

Then why has our union representation under ALPA and now USAPA tried everything but consensus to force its will against all odds, in the most expensive dragged out scheme in history, while we all continue under bankruptcy wages indefinitely. Enough is enough, IMO.

 

[Zone5]

We already negotiated. We mediated. Finally we arbitrated.

The quickest way to settle this is for you east guys to live up to your first agreement and not try and make different deal.

We could not agree the first time. Why would you think we could agree this time when usapa comes with the same pile of crap DOH list you brought the last time?

"Groundhog Day" responses back and forth will not accomplish spit.

If the current "first agreement" was acceptable to BOTH factions, it would indeed be the fastest resolution. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on ones opinion) it's not.

Presumably, both factions would sit down with a clean sheet of paper and address all concerns as they exist today, with the goal of crafting a workable compromise acceptable and ratifiable by both sides.

Perhaps, this process would not produce an acceptable result, is that a reason not to try?

seajay

 

[aquagreen73s]

The west seem to think THIS SLI is done. The Company is not sure, but its obvious which way they are leaning, which is why they are asking a judge.

Not entirely correct. The company is asking the judge for guidance on their liability in light of:
(1) The Transition Agreement which the company signed and that calls for the Nicolau to implemented in a joint contract;
(2) The new bargaining agent refuses to implement the Nicolau;
(3) the company is required to negotiate under the RLA;
(4) the company can be held liable for not negotiating in good faith;
(5) the company can be held liable for agreeing to a contract term that later is determined to be a violation of the union's duty to fairly represent;

The liability question is two fold:

(i) if the company insists on the Nicolau, does that constitute a lack of good faith bargaining on the company's part under the RLA?
(ii) if the company accepts a non-Nicolau, what is the company's liability to the West pilots?

The SLI is not at issue; it's merely an integral part of the fact pattern which is why the attempt to mediate is pointless.

 

[cleardirect]

"Groundhog Day" responses back and forth will not accomplish spit.

If the current "first agreement" was acceptable to BOTH factions, it would indeed be the fastest resolution. Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on ones opinion) it's not.

Presumably, both factions would sit down with a clean sheet of paper and address all concerns as they exist today, with the goal of crafting a workable compromise acceptable and ratifiable by both sides.

Perhaps, this process would not produce an acceptable result, is that a reason not to try?

seajay

YES!

 

[Zone5]

This habit of speaking for everyone must stop. Define "all." I don't think focusing on today is in the west pilots best interest. Should we ask them? What about Empire? Shuttle? It's convenient to say today is all that matters. But there is little difference between your idea of re-negotiating an arbitration, and renegotiating an SLI of years past. Saying 'the past is done and this is not' is only a point of view. One the court is being asked to clarify. The west seem to think THIS SLI is done. The Company is not sure, but its obvious which way they are leaning, which is why they are asking a judge.



We already DID negotiate. Our union's idea of negotiation didn't exactly work out. That's the point of arbitration. When negotiation fails it is the last resort. I remember many on our side who wanted to rush to arbitration, skipping the entire negotiating phase, so we could get on with the inevitable DOH SLI. The only difference is that today WE are in a better position than we were 5 years ago, DUE to the merger. Sounds pretty convenient to say, now all our furloughs are back and all our guys have moved up a bit at the expense of our west counterparts... lets have a do-over. I find it ludicrous to think anyone on their legal footing would subject themselves to another round of negotiation given our collective history.



Of course anything is possible. But given the cards they hold, and the cards we hold thanks to our union representation, there is almost no incentive for them to fold.



Seajay, the only solution for US is to negotiate. The problem is that we made sure there is no one left to negotiate with. That ship has sailed. You and I both know that we could have forced a solution acceptable to a majority long ago since we had the majority for some time. The only question left is whether or not that solution (one other than Nic) is legal. We'll have that answer soon enough.



Then why has our union representation under ALPA and now USAPA tried everything but consensus to force its will against all odds, in the most expensive dragged out scheme in history, while we all continue under bankruptcy wages indefinitely. Enough is enough, IMO.

With enough will, there is always a way.

seajay

 

[aquagreen73s]

If the current "first agreement" was acceptable to BOTH factions, it would indeed be the fastest resolution.

Acceptability can only be determined by failed votes. How many failed votes have there been with the Nicolau? Answer: none. And we all know why....because it will pass on the East.

 

[Code Name V]

There are no words small enough for you to understand.

Just like you do not understand the difference between longevity and seniority.

and guess what? It won't matter in the long run. Separate ops forever. No joint contract. live with whatever attrition we both have coming and hope your scope holds up in court when they dump PHX.

All the risk lies with the west.

We will stay on LOA93 and hope for a Kasher win which will be a game changer, and you will stagnate on the west with no hope of moving off of your current contract. Good enough for me and everyone I fly with; both domestic and international. I hope what you have is good enough for you...

V