US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Keroseneuser]

I feel for the AA folks. What ever their worst case scenario they have in mind right now is a pleasant thought compared to what they are going to end up with.

As far as we are concerned. If Parker gets involved in this process (likely) he is in it for one thing MONEY. He will do whatever he has to do to make MONEY. Both east and West are expendable in his mind if it advances his goals.

I suspect he has several contengency plans in mind for this event. Up to an including selling off one side or another, or piecing out one side or another.

In the end US and AA may become one. But even if they do it will probably be very bad for some or all of us.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

The West still has furloughees,,,,,,that are senior to active east employees on the only accepted system seniority list.

The West also has scope,,it is in the TA,,,we have a fleet min of 122 aircraft until the AWA/AAA merger is complete.

Not so certain the TA has any applicability, should a merger be announced. Good luck on all your lawsuits.

 

[nic4us]

So you are willing to have 1000 furloughed AA pilots in the active ranks? They are twice as big so that puts their furloughed pilots above all those new hires and quite a few of your east F/O's. Going to throw those 99 hires under the bus again?

Because you see all of our furloughed pilots have been given a chance to return. Granted it is on the east contract and none of them are willing to put up with that BS. They remain out by their choice.

The way I see West furloughs is they are in the same position as a pilot who bypasses recall, but remains senior to a pilot junior to them who accepted recall.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Gentlemen. I suggest that you all read and understand A/M and M/B. Figure out what it says and does not say. This time there will be no blaming ALPA for a weak merger policy. Federal mediation this time. No cowardly running from the union and saying it does not apply.

You all had better get your heads out of that dark place and think about this. Want to wait another 6 years on LOA 93 while you fight another losing battle?

Aw, I think the west had better think about their, now, loser "scope".

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

So you are willing to have 1000 furloughed AA pilots in the active ranks? They are twice as big so that puts their furloughed pilots above all those new hires and quite a few of your east F/O's. Going to throw those 99 hires under the bus again?

Reading does not seem to be a skill you can brag about.

The east has always wanted credit for furlough. The west historically has said no.

Now you want to change. Can you now say, DOH?

 

[cleardirect]

Reading does not seem to be a skill you can brag about.

The east has always wanted credit for furlough. The west historically has said no.

Now you want to change. Can you now say, DOH?

No change from the west. Furloughed is furloughed.

I was just doing a hypocrisy check. So you are willing to have 1000 furloughed AA pilots mixed into your active pilots?

That means using the Nicolau all of your furloughed and new hires are junior to furloughed AA pilots. Wow way to protect yourself.

 

[nic4us]

Not so certain the TA has any applicability, should a merger be announced. Good luck on all your lawsuits.

It is the threat of suit that carries the weight.

You see, unlike a reneging scumbag who only has to worry about making it for 5 years to retirement, a corporation has a longer term fidiciary responsibility. No corporate officer in their right mind would do a deal that they know violates a contract and exposes that corportation to huge damage sums in the hopes of not being around in a couple years to weasel out of any damage awards.

Point being, the West just threatens suit, states their case to the power players, and if our arguements holds any water (which it does) we get our interest protected according to the contracts we have in place.

Since the AWA/AAA merger has not been completed, that contract would be the TA. Once we have a joint contract, there would be no east and West, and we will all have the same scope.

 

[cleardirect]

No. Your own scope will or will not protect you in the next merger. This merger was never completed. Your 122 a/c might survive a renegotiated T/A, but according to your scope you have no say in who or what fuselage goes where, in any combination.

We like our scope, warts and all. It is only useful when things get really hairy. Like now. Our "pay raises" come in the form of penalties. Give it a read sometime, you know, the penalties Doug said he would get around?

You have now been certified as class, what four times now? Maybe that "class" has a little more work to do in the coming months than stonewall and refuse to even sit down at any table.

My guess has been for a long time....you will be a separate entity funded by USAPA and the Company. Then whatever result comes will be of your own doing, even if you choose to walk in the room and hand those 9500 pilots (or some other group) the Nic as YOUR starting point.

RR

First usapa does not have any money to fund anything.

But more important how do you get around the NMB? They have certified us as a single pilots group. But hey I having no problem have our own merger committee. You guys just send over about $3 million dollars and we can have at it. After all we have seen how your merger committee works and we have seen how the west merger committee works. I like our chances a lot better than your.

 

[Reed Richards]

It is the threat of suit that carries the weight.

Since the AWA/AAA merger has not been completed, that contract would be the TA. Once we have a joint contract, there would be no east and West, and we will all have the same scope.

And how has that whole "threat" thing been working out for you? After almost 5 years there are no court orders or judgments against USAPA concerning our dealings with PHX.

By definition, the T/A will have to change if a third party becomes involved. And no, it is not "your contract." We have been living under our respective contracts for the last 10 years or so.

The T/A was blueprint for a merger that never happened, kind of like a bargaining position for a previous union. The T/A indeed has teeth, but it is only so good once the parties abandon the merger for which it was intended. Unknown territory indeed for both sides. But thinking you ride into the sunset with a T/A that does not even apply to current events is fantasy.

Got scope?

RR

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

No change from the west. Furloughed is furloughed.

I was just doing a hypocrisy check. So you are willing to have 1000 furloughed AA pilots mixed into your active pilots?

That means using the Nicolau all of your furloughed and new hires are junior to furloughed AA pilots. Wow way to protect yourself.

I guess you have not figured out that your lottery ticket is dead, you licked the printing off.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

And how has that whole "threat" thing been working out for you? After almost 5 years there are no court orders or judgments against USAPA concerning our dealings with PHX.

By definition, the T/A will have to change if a third party becomes involved. And no, it is not "your contract." We have been living under our respective contracts for the last 10 years or so.

The T/A was blueprint for a merger that never happened, kind of like a bargaining position for a previous union. The T/A indeed has teeth, but it is only so good once the parties abandon the merger for which it was intended. Unknown territory indeed for both sides. But thinking you ride into the sunset with a T/A that does not even apply to current events is fantasy.

Got scope?

RR

Section 12, and that "risk thing", but you can bet in the land of consolidation and capacity reduction, PHX is on top of the prize heep! On Sept. 17, 2009, AMR announced plans to strengthen its network by reallocating capacity to hubs in Dallas/Fort Worth, Chicago, Miami and New York and enhance its fleet to better serve customers. These four cities, along with Los Angeles, serve as the cornerstones of the company’s network. The cornerstone strategy not only enhances AMR’s domestic network but improves the company’s ability to connect passengers globally, through our own flights and those of oneworld alliance partners

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

It is the threat of suit that carries the weight.

It is the possibility of "losing" the suit that carries weight. Once the company knows they will win, you lose that "threat".

You see, unlike a reneging scumbag who only has to worry about making it for 5 years to retirement, a corporation has a longer term fidiciary responsibility. No corporate officer in their right mind would do a deal that they know violates a contract and exposes that corportation to huge damage sums in the hopes of not being around in a couple years to weasel out of any damage awards.

Corporations violate contracts all the time. Come back when you see a corporation get whacked over this. Thanks for your opinion.

Point being, the West just threatens suit, states their case to the power players, and if our arguements holds any water (which it does) we get our interest protected according to the contracts we have in place.

Mr. Parker listens to the west while any cooperation it may engender protects his piece of the pie. When he sees no point in kissing the west further, good bye.

Since the AWA/AAA merger has not been completed, that contract would be the TA. Once we have a joint contract, there would be no east and West, and we will all have the same scope.

Sigh. The TA is not a contract in the sense that you state. It is a "tentative agreement", subject to all the variety the future tosses it. It's validity with ALPA is unquestioned, yet is subject to interpretation without.

Good luck thinking the east will vote for a merged contract with anything approaching a nicholau award in it.

 

[nic4us]

And how has that whole "threat" thing been working out for you? After almost 5 years there are no court orders or judgments against USAPA concerning our dealings with PHX.

By definition, the T/A will have to change if a third party becomes involved. And no, it is not "your contract." We have been living under our respective contracts for the last 10 years or so.

The T/A was blueprint for a merger that never happened, kind of like a bargaining position for a previous union. The T/A indeed has teeth, but it is only so good once the parties abandon the merger for which it was intended. Unknown territory indeed for both sides. But thinking you ride into the sunset with a T/A that does not even apply to current events is fantasy.

Got scope?

RR

You wish!!!

So now you are pretending that AWA/AAA never entered into a merger agreement, and that one certificate was never established, and single carrier status was never granted, and Nic was never awarded, and the TA was just a suggestion of how to do a "merger that never happened", and that the rest of the entire airline (sans pilots) has already completed the merger process.

The TA is most definetly a contract, and the West pilot class is a signatory of that contract, both collectively and individually. Rights granted under the TA are enforcable, and it is an extension of both the east and West CBAs.

The only way for the company to get out of the TA is to complete the operational pilot integration with a joint CBA. Otherwise, just as usapa inherited the TA, so would any "airline parties" in a future merger.


As to "how is that threat thing been working out for you?"....The answere would be,,,great. The one time we used it, the company immediately ran to federal court seeking immunity from the threatened suit. Then walked into the courtroom and told the judge that our threat is REAL, and the West pilot class' threat has legs, because there is already a jury verdict supporting our position.

The company can now go to usapa and ask for relief from the TA. However, any detrimental effects toward the West, and the West now has the collusion smoking gun.


One more thing. Your statement, "There are no court orders or judgements against usapa regarding our dealings with PHX", proves you have your head in the sand. I quote...

"By deferring judicial intervention, we leave USAPA to bargain
in good faith pursuant to its DFR, with the interests of all members
— both East and West — in mind, under pain of an unquestionably ripe
DFR suit, once a contract is ratified."

Feel free to quote the 9th. The West most certainly will. Especially if we have to threaten suit in any future merger scenarios.

 

[cleardirect]

Section 12, and that "risk thing", but you can bet in the land of consolidation and capacity reduction, PHX is on top of the prize heep! On Sept. 17, 2009, AMR announced plans to strengthen its network by reallocating capacity to hubs in Dallas/Fort Worth, Chicago, Miami and New York and enhance its fleet to better serve customers. These four cities, along with Los Angeles, serve as the cornerstones of the company’s network. The cornerstone strategy not only enhances AMR’s domestic network but improves the company’s ability to connect passengers globally, through our own flights and those of oneworld alliance partners

DFW,ORD,MIA,LGA. LAX as a "focus" city does mainly international flights. I don't see where PHX is near those hubs.

Now CLT is just down the road from MIA and PHL sits in the shadow of NY. You might want to contemplate your own future.

BTW learn to say "American". Finally someone is going to put a bullet in the zombie US Airways.

 

[nic4us]

It is the possibility of "losing" the suit that carries weight. Once the company knows they will win, you lose that "threat".



Corporations violate contracts all the time. Come back when you see a corporation get whacked over this. Thanks for your opinion.



Mr. Parker listens to the west while any cooperation it may engender protects his piece of the pie. When he sees no point in kissing the west further, good bye.


Sigh. The TA is not a contract in the sense that you state. It is a "tentative agreement", subject to all the variety the future tosses it. It's validity with ALPA is unquestioned, yet is subject to interpretation without.

Good luck thinking the east will vote for a merged contract with anything approaching a nicholau award in it.

Yes the TA is entittled "tentative agreement" but it is contractually a LETTER OF AGREEMENT. Just like that great LOA93 you have been working under for the last 7 years.

THIS LETTER OF AGREEMENT is made and entered into in accordance with the provisions of the Railway
Labor Act, as amended (the “Act”), by and between AMERICA WEST HOLDINGS CORPORATION
(“AWHC”), AMERICA WEST AIRLINES, INC. (“AMERICA WEST”), US AIRWAYS GROUP, INC. (“US
AIRWAYS GROUP”), US AIRWAYS, INC. (“US AIRWAYS”), and the AIR LINE PILOTS in the service of
AMERICA WEST and US AIRWAYS, respectively, as represented by the AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION
(hereinafter referred to as “the Association”) by and through the Master Executive Councils of the America
West and US Airways pilots (“America West MEC” and “US Airways MEC” respectively) (collectively
referred to as the “Parties”).

Don't vote for any contract with the Nic in it...I really do not care. But here is an interesting spin. Lets say Parker is right, and that we go into a merger with AA and do a three way seniority integration. i.e. AA/east/West as three seperate groups all to be merged into one list. Does an AA f/o make more than an east narrowbody captain? If so, you may find yourselves wishing you took the Nic. Seniority going something like AA widebody captains, then AA narrowbody captains, then West narrowbody captains, then AA widebody f/o, then AA narrowbody f/o, THEN east narrowbody captain, then West narrowbody f/o then, east 190 captains, then last and most definetly last the rest of the east f/os.