US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nycbusdriver]

I truly feel bad for the employees of AMR. There is nothing so disheartening than having your company file for bankruptcy.

Now before you guys jump all over me and try to make this into a call to arms with your different opinions and stab in the eye tactics please keep in mind that there are real people over there with real worries about their futures.

I wish the best for them and hope every thing works out well for them. Hopefully they will not lose their pensions. God, I hope not.... 🙁

Please keep this in mind before you start slicing and dicing them.

I agree with you.

But I think that the folks over at AA have less to worry about than the folks at LCC. Chapter 11 or not. They are in better shape for the future, even with bankruptcy, than LCC is. And that is assuming that AA will emerge from Chapter 11 as a stand-alone carrier and LCC will still be flapping in the desert breezes by itself.

I feel this way because, if for no other reason, they have competent management. LCC's? Not so much.

Oh....and the $4 billion in unrestricted cash is a nice plus, too.

 

[Black Swan]

this is going to be fun!

What is going to be exceptionally funny is the fact Leonidas as the "WEST PILOTS CLASS" has stupidly rejected mediation on the matter. Thus forcing USAPA to move forward without your input, which was sought. Read the 9th discussion carefully. When you are offered an opportunity to mediate a dispute and refuse it, you then are subject to the penalties of such non participation. Just because Leonidas continues to cling to an untenable bargaining position doesn't mean the rest of the parties cannot move on without that entity and its' participation. Your self inflicted harm. The harm is a direct result of your stubborness. And risk it is. Just as WYE RIVER was a point where the West decided to opt out of the reality of the union bargaining process. Where has that gotten you to this point? Nowhere. You have got to have the worst legal advice I have ever seen. Between Ferguson and Jacobs, nobody can figure things out from a correct legal perspective.

"It is, however,
at best, SPECULATIVE that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated." 9th court of Appeals San Francisco

Seems the 9th understood the fact which eludes you. Even if it happened that Silver said the Nic had to be used (which would be struck by the 9th) The 9th recognized the East pilots would NEVER ratify it. A point the West pilots cannot seem to grasp.

 

[nevergiveup]

That list is legally defined as the ALPA seniority integration proposal.

...and can be used by the company only in the event of a single CBA between the AAA and the former AWA pilots. If we get a contract prior to any merger with someone else, then the NIC might in fact be the implemented list. If not, a new TA must be agreed upon. We will all know in a few more years.

 

[Black Swan]

Sorry young man but a few Federal Judges, a plaintiff known as lcc and another defendant known as AOL disagrees with you. Hope to see you in court tomorrow.

OTTER

It will be very interesting. Especially in light of what the 9th said after your WAKE DEBACLE. Judge Silver is well aware of that outcome. She is going to be made well aware the WEST CLASS is refusing to come off their bargaining position, even in the face of Cleary seeking compromise. Your risk! Pretty stupid to turn down talks with the likes of George Mitchell and Abner. Also in light of what happened to the poor American people. She has got to be aware of those career expectations.Wait till you see the other mediator. Good luck with that. I hope Eric shaves.

 

[OTTER574]

That list is legally defined as the ALPA seniority integration proposal.

Agreed to in the TA, paid for and accepted by the company under oath.

Next BS statement please?

OTTER

 

[nycbusdriver]

Just got a call from a friend of mine at AA he had turned in his paperwork for early out so he could get his lump sum. He wasnt sure how many senior guys went but he said they are going to have trouble crewing aircraft.

I hope for his sake that it's not too late to get that lump sum. If the money has to go through the bankruptcy court, there's no telling what will happen.

Agreed to in the TA, paid for and accepted by the company under oath.

Next BS statement please?

OTTER

As noted several posts earlier, the TA is simply a contract. Contracts can be renegotiated at any time if all parties involved agree. Since the West MEC and the East MEC have been subsumed through the legal federal election of a new bargaining agent, the company and USAPA can change the TA at their collective will. Up to this point, it has not been something the company was inclined to do. AA going Chapter 11 changes the game considerably.

 

[Phoenix]

Agreed to in the TA, paid for and accepted by the company under oath.

Next BS statement please?

OTTER

"ALPA's seniority integration proposal".. That definition of the Nic list is the explicit characterization of the 9th. The 9th further acknowledged that it is the West's preferred seniority system, and the 9th plainly stated that it is not able to provide the NIC for the West. The 9th acknowledged that the only way forward is through bargaining between the company and USAPA.

Your determination that the 9th's definition is BS has been duly noted.

 

[nic4us]

So if three people enter into a mutually accepted and beneficial agreement, and one dies, the two remaining parties are forever bound by that agreement..or could they change it?

You are about to be given a unique opportunity to have real influence on your own future. Stomping your feet and holding your breath is not going to change the fact there will never be a two way contract between the pilot groups here. That ship has sailed. Time for us all to move on, or in your case lacking a change of attitude, be carried on.

RR

If three parties entered into an agreement, and one party died, the deceased party's estate would have claim to their portion. For instance, three parties pool their money and buy lottery tickets agreeing to split any winnings with equal 1/3rd shares(you guys are so found of lottery analogies). While waiting for the drawing one party dies. Can the other two change the rules and stiff the deceased party's estate?

In our case, nobody has gone away. We still have all three parties. Being, the company, east pilots, and West pilots. The only difference is usapa now represents the east and West pilots rather than ALPA.

The only ship that sailed is the hundreds of millions in pay and benefits the east has denied us all in their unreachable DOH quest. All three parties are still here, as evidenced by the company DJ. usapa either represents the West, and enforces our contracts and our contractual rights to the NIc, or they are guilty of DFR. Real simple. It is Nic or DFR, and there is absolutely no court rulings to date to refute that fact, yet there is a jury verdict we are all aware of that confirms.

 

[OTTER574]

It will be very interesting. Especially in light of what the 9th said after your WAKE DEBACLE. Judge Silver is well aware of that outcome. She is going to be made well aware the WEST CLASS is refusing to come off their bargaining position, even in the face of Cleary seeking compromise. Your risk! Pretty stupid to turn down talks with the likes of George Mitchell and Abner. And the other mediator. Good luck with that. I hope Eric shaves.

Lets see?...mediate a final and binding arbitration..yeah right slick.

Judge Silver is deciding a case concerning CONTRACT LAW called the TA and how this relates to lcc obligations (the plaintiff) concerning this contract. Something your corrupt usapa brain trust failed to fill you in on and it's clear outcome young man.

See you in court tomorrow.

OTTER

 

[nic4us]

There is no such thing as "Addington evidence". Evidence is evidence and it has little purpose unless and until you have a case before the court, which you don't. And evidence is not the issue. The issue is the standard of DFR that will be used to determine if DFR was breached. If you should ever be cleared into the court to present a DFR case, the SCOTUS standard cited by the 9th will not be exclude, as it was by Wake.

You do understand that the company DJ has nothing to do with whether or not you or usapa think the Nic is fair, right?

We won't ever have to go to court for DFR, because the only seniority list that will ever be incorporated into a joint contract will be the Nic.

 

[OTTER574]

"ALPA's seniority integration proposal".. That definition of the Nic list is the explicit characterization of the 9th. The 9th further acknowledged that it is the West's preferred seniority system, and the 9th plainly stated that it is not able to provide the NIC for the West. The 9th acknowledged that the only way forward is through bargaining between the company and USAPA.

Your determination that the 9th's definition is BS has been duly noted.

The company has stated it can not and will not negotiate a seniority list with usapa.

Please bring better material next time in front of a Federal Judge, because this is like shooting fish in a usapa barrel.

OTTER

 

[nic4us]

That list is legally defined as the ALPA seniority integration proposal.

As you have been told repeatedly, feel free to substiitute usapa where it says ALPA.

Now, usapa either presents the "usapa" seniority integration proposal, commonly know as the Nic, or you guys sit on LOA93.

In any future merger scenario, usapa presents the Nic as the only "accepted" system seniority list for LCC, or the West shuts down any integrations between merger partner pilot groups. Perhaps that would be just what a combined company's management would desire, but, I highly doubt it would be what a numerically superior merger partner's pilot group would desire.

 

[Black Swan]

The company has stated it can not and will not negotiate a seniority list with usapa.

Please bring better material next time in front of a Federal Judge, because this is like shooting fish in a usapa barrel.

OTTER

I specifically remember Doug telling you in a Crew News " THIS IS FOR YOU TO DECIDE" Either way, here is something in light of the American Airlines Tragedy. One more triumph of management over their workers. This is for you UHaul.

 

[Black Swan]

The company has stated it can not and will not negotiate a seniority list with usapa.

Please bring better material next time in front of a Federal Judge, because this is like shooting fish in a usapa barrel.

OTTER

...

 

[Phoenix]

If three parties entered into an agreement, and one party died, the deceased party's estate would have claim to their portion. For instance, three parties pool their money and buy lottery tickets agreeing to split any winnings with equal 1/3rd shares(you guys are so found of lottery analogies). While waiting for the drawing one party dies. Can the other two change the rules and stiff the deceased party's estate?

In our case, nobody has gone away. We still have all three parties. Being, the company, east pilots, and West pilots. The only difference is usapa now represents the east and West pilots rather than ALPA.

The only ship that sailed is the hundreds of millions in pay and benefits the east has denied us all in their unreachable DOH quest. All three parties are still here, as evidenced by the company DJ. usapa either represents the West, and enforces our contracts and our contractual rights to the NIc, or they are guilty of DFR. Real simple. It is Nic or DFR, and there is absolutely no court rulings to date to refute that fact, yet there is a jury verdict we are all aware of that confirms.

You said lottery ticket. Another Freudian slip.