US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

"Under the TA, the carriers agreed not to object to ALPA's seniority integration proposal."

You do know that that remark isn't accurately based on the TA, right? In a contract case, oh...say in Silver's courtroom, which do you think is controlling - the actual contract or the 9th's misquote of the contract? Not that it makes any difference since the carrier DID agree to ALPA's proposal.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Thus, even under the district court’s injunction mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever would be effectuated." 9th court of Appeals San Francisco. Seems the 9th understood the fact which eludes you. Even if it happened that Silver said the Nic had to be used (which would be struck by the 9th) The 9th recognized the East pilots would NEVER ratify it. A point the West pilots cannot seem to grasp.

BS, maybe one of these days you'll learn to read. The 9th said "it is uncertain that the West Pilots preferred seniority system ever would be effectuated." Try looking up "uncertain". It definitely doesn't mean "will never happen"...

Jim

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Is the Great Pumpkin going to rise tomorrow as well?

What part of "Binding" do you not get?

Greedy entitlement east, this has already cost you so much, stay blind...it suits you.

GREEDY ENTITLEMENT EAST? Now your job creates how much revenue, mind you know one in HR died on 911, and you surely know which coast revenue is created,pleez advice DUI DOUG to get a cab! We actually create revenue, you absorb it! MM! It is sobering , wake up!

 

[HPearlyretiree]

GREEDY ENTITLEMENT EAST? Now your job creates how much revenue, mind you know one in HR died on 911, and you surely know which coast revenue is created,pleez advice DUI DOUG to get a cab! We actually create revenue, you absorb it! MM! It is sobering , wake up!

Damn, pharmacology could really save your life. You spout half sentences of gibberish like a homeless guy in a subway car.

I'd be terrified if I heard you on the PA talking to passengers.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

LCC US Airways Group, Inc. 4.72 +0.26 5.83% 765.17M
UAL United Continental Hld... 17.97 +0.34 1.93% 5.95B
AMR AMR Corporation 0.320 +0.060 23.08% 107.27M
DAL Delta Air Lines, Inc. 8.12 +0.32 4.10% 6.88B
LUV Southwest Airlines Co. 8.38 +0.45 5.67% 6.52B
RJET Republic Airways Hldgs... 3.83 +0.11 2.96% 185.09M
JBLU JetBlue Airways Corp. 4.12 +0.06 1.48% 1.22B
HA Hawaiian Holdings, Inc. 5.95 +0.45 8.18% 301.74M
ALK Alaska Air Group, Inc. 69.42 +4.12 6.31% 2.47B
SKYW SkyWest, Inc. 12.13 +0.80 7.06% 615.27M
US Airways, Inc. US Airways, Inc.
If you take a real good look at the charts or have some bussiness sense you will see DUI DOUG will have to convince alot of hedge funds he is good for the money, notice which companies market caps eclipse LCC, aint rocket science! SWA could buy AMR and LCC outright, heck ALK has 3 times LCC market cap DUI DOUG long road to hoe!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Damn, pharmacology could really save your life. You spout half sentences of gibberish like a homeless guy in a subway car.

I'd be terrified if I heard you on the PA talking to passengers.

I am terrified they actually pay you, heck we could get a college intern at half your price! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Damn, pharmacology could really save your life. You spout half sentences of gibberish like a homeless guy in a subway car.

I'd be terrified if I heard you on the PA talking to passengers.

I understand, since you have no real MARKETABLE SKILL OR EXPERIENCE(AWA) your feeling of inadequatecy is understandable!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/11/30/will-us-airways-hit-an-air-pocket.aspx DUI DOUG!

 

[Phoenix]

Actually, we spent something like $12 million.

Being a typical usapian, you fail to recognize that the money usapa spent is also West money.

Don't worry it will be accounted for in the damages.

Oh, and guess what, we don't need a ratified contract to sue for DFR. That just pertains to why Addington was dismissed.

If you don't need a ratified contract, as the 9th said in their dismissal of Addington, then why are you not back in court for a DFR?

 

[cleardirect]

Just curious. Who or what would be the representative of the west pilots? Is it possible that they could represent themselves separately from USAPA? What federally recognized group would that be? AOL? The ones who stole/used our private information?

I mean, spokespeople for the west keep saying USAPA "inherits" all agreements and serves as the bargaining unit for the west, using that line of reasoning to threaten the unit with DFR. IANAL, but it seems the spoke people want it both ways.

Just thinking because DOH with C&Rs seems attractive to my friends at American. So, we have three groups, according to dougweiser (like I think he has any idea what he is talking about).

American
East
West

Since the Nicholau ¿award? was poisoned by an incomplete list from the east (thank you ALPA), any subsequent arbitration should be rather interesting. As in, we live in interesting times.

The Nicolau list is poisoned? Do you have a court document that says that or is that just your opinon?

Now as far as your "friends" over at American being attracted to DOH. BS. Wrong wrong wrong.

It is a quick look to see there is no way AA is going to go anywhere near DOH. Currently there are 9500 active AA pilots. Figure 45% captains because of the 120 WB they have 4275. The junior captain at AA was hired in 1992. Looking at the east list 2900 numbers down is a 1990 hire. But he is a 320 F/O. That would mean by DOH every east captain would be senior to most of the AA captain and all of the AA F/O's. All of the east F/o's would be senior to a good number of AA captains and all of the AA F/O's.

Comparing some numbers.

Number of east pilots hired before 1978 171 AA pilots before 1978 267
Number of east pilots hired before 1980 481 AA pilots before 1980 385
Number of east pilots hired before 1985 1936 AA pilots before 1985 1365
Number of east pilots hired before 1990 3909 AA pilots before 1990 4207

This is an old list and not updated. But comparing the east to AA the east is 1/3 the size and would put all of the east pilot in front of AA captains and all of AA F/O's. No I do not think that your "friend" at AA is eager to use DOH.

56% of the AA list was hired after 1990. 84% of the east list was hired before 1990. You tell me. What is going to be the answer to DOH when those numbers are presented to the AA pilots?

Unless you would be willing to agree to be locked into CLT/DCA/PHL. You keep what you brought and never fly AA equipment. If those bases happen to shrink that is a shame and those pilots get furloughed. Sound like a good C&R that you can live with?

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/11/30/will-us-airways-hit-an-air-pocket.aspx DUI DOUG!

YOU SEE DUI DOUG is in a world of hurt, bad property investements derivatives he is a walkingdead, the numbers don't lie, TEAM TEMPE, couldn't get a job anywhere else!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

The Nicolau list is poisoned? Do you have a court document that says that or is that just your opinon?

Now as far as your "friends" over at American being attracted to DOH. BS. Wrong wrong wrong.

It is a quick look to see there is no way AA is going to go anywhere near DOH. Currently there are 9500 active AA pilots. Figure 45% captains because of the 120 WB they have 4275. The junior captain at AA was hired in 1992. Looking at the east list 2900 numbers down is a 1990 hire. But he is a 320 F/O. That would mean by DOH every east captain would be senior to most of the AA captain and all of the AA F/O's. All of the east F/o's would be senior to a good number of AA captains and all of the AA F/O's.

Comparing some numbers.

Number of east pilots hired before 1978 171 AA pilots before 1978 267
Number of east pilots hired before 1980 481 AA pilots before 1980 385
Number of east pilots hired before 1985 1936 AA pilots before 1985 1365
Number of east pilots hired before 1990 3909 AA pilots before 1990 4207

This is an old list and not updated. But comparing the east to AA the east is 1/3 the size and would put all of the east pilot in front of AA captains and all of AA F/O's. No I do not think that your "friend" at AA is eager to use DOH.

56% of the AA list was hired after 1990. 84% of the east list was hired before 1990. You tell me. What is going to be the answer to DOH when those numbers are presented to the AA pilots?

Unless you would be willing to agree to be locked into CLT/DCA/PHL. You keep what you brought and never fly AA equipment. If those bases happen to shrink that is a shame and those pilots get furloughed. Sound like a good C&R that you can live with?

Do you really think we care, our hopes they keep their pensions, you truly are a bunch of entitlement pr$&ks !

 

[cleardirect]

What is going to be exceptionally funny is the fact Leonidas as the "WEST PILOTS CLASS" has stupidly rejected mediation on the matter. Thus forcing USAPA to move forward without your input, which was sought. Read the 9th discussion carefully. When you are offered an opportunity to mediate a dispute and refuse it, you then are subject to the penalties of such non participation. Just because Leonidas continues to cling to an untenable bargaining position doesn't mean the rest of the parties cannot move on without that entity and its' participation. Your self inflicted harm. The harm is a direct result of your stubborness. And risk it is. Just as WYE RIVER was a point where the West decided to opt out of the reality of the union bargaining process. Where has that gotten you to this point? Nowhere. You have got to have the worst legal advice I have ever seen. Between Ferguson and Jacobs, nobody can figure things out from a correct legal perspective.

"It is, however,
at best, SPECULATIVE that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated." 9th court of Appeals San Francisco

Seems the 9th understood the fact which eludes you. Even if it happened that Silver said the Nic had to be used (which would be struck by the 9th) The 9th recognized the East pilots would NEVER ratify it. A point the West pilots cannot seem to grasp.

Since you like to quote court documents.

17. The Prospects For Settlement.

(a) US Airways’ Position:
US Airways does not believe there is any prospect for successful settlement.

(B) West Pilot Class’ Position:
There is no point to mediating enforcement of an arbitration award. If this
seniority dispute was not resolved by binding arbitration it surely is not going to be
resolved by non-binding mediation. Rather, there must be a definitive ruling from the
Court that USAPA cannot enter into any new CBA unless that contract incorporates the
Nicolau Award. Moreover, USAPA proposes a mediation where its hands would be tied
by a constitution that precludes any seniority scheme other than strict date-of-hire.

(c) USAPA’s Position:
USAPA urges the Court to strongly encourage the parties to mediate the seniority
dispute underlying this case through the services of a mediator with a national reputation
(for example, George Mitchell or Abner Mikva). As the Ninth Circuit’s decision in
Addington suggests, an agreement among the interested parties is the only realistic way of
avoiding continued litigation. The interests of achieving a final resolution of the
underlying issues in this case and the interests of preserving judicial resources all favor a
good faith effort by all of the parties to reach agreement outside the judicial forum.
USAPA believes that a nationally recognized mediator is necessary and appropriate to
encourage all the parties to engage in the kind of open and realistic process necessary to
fashion such an agreement.

As you can see the company and the west pilots do not believe mediation will work. Is she going to punish both of us? If this is not binding on either party what would be the point other than to waste time?

What do you think the judge is going to say when usapa walks into to court and says we want to mediate but the starting point is DOH. The same place we started with Nicolau. The same place we used the majority to force DOH on the west pilots before the Addington and the same place we are today. The same list we gave the company in 2008 and the same list we gave the company in 2011. usapa is not about mediating a seniority list you are demanding DOH. what you are really telling the judge is you want to mediate C&R's but the seniority list has to be what usapa wants.That is not mediation that is dictating. The courts hate when people try and dictate to the smaller groups especially after usapa lost a DFR over this very issue.

Besides. 2 of the 3 parties say no mediation. What is it that you guys tell us all of the time???? Majority rules!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/11/30/will-us-airways-hit-an-air-pocket.aspx DUI DOUG!

KEY WORD, FOR NOW! DUI DOUG!

 

[cleardirect]

I specifically remember Doug telling you in a Crew News " THIS IS FOR YOU TO DECIDE" Either way, here is something in light of the American Airlines Tragedy. One more triumph of management over their workers. This is for you UHaul.

OK! The west decided that we want what we agreed to. The Nicolau list. Are we done?

No so I guess we have to let a court decide. That is going to happen Dec 1. You all said you were willing to let the court decide. you all said that the ninth said you were right. Why delay the process and short circuit the court deciding by mediating? If you are right and the ninth said you won why give up now and mediate?

We decided. It is the Nicolau. End of story.