US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

If Silver thinks she can inhibit bargaining she will just delay it until the 9th reviews and repeats that the court stays out.

I'm sure this has been covered a million time and we are about to find out what the good Judge Silver thinks, but does this paragraph concern you guys, or do you zoom in on the "west pilots being harmed" part and skip the rest?

THE COURT: What would you have argued to the Ninth
10 Circuit had you been a party? You're in front of the Ninth 0229
11 Circuit now. What would you have argued that would change the
12 complexion of the case? It seems to me, as I've read the case
13 again and again, that the majority opinion was -- they were
14 adamant about taking the position, which is supported by the
15 case law, that they are to defer where there are collective 0253
16 bargaining agreement negotiations. So they were just going to
17 keep away from that no matter what. No question the Court
18 embraced the issue that there was harm to the West Pilots.
19 That was clear. Nonetheless, they were not -- still, this was
20 something that could be negotiated and they felt it would be 0220
21 negotiated and even though US Air was not present, that it
22 still could be negotiated so why is it any different?

Also, section XII B of the TA says the TA can be amended by written agreement by both parties. USAPA now represents the west, so what's the problem? I've argued before that we are not changing the TA, but the final contract. Again we will see if that is correct and if the judge thinks it's legal.

 

[BoeingBoy]

If one loses something that has never happened, then what has he lost.........nothing.

So if I get hit by a truck today, and lose the 10+years of life the actuaries say I have coming I've lost nothing since that 10+ years of extra life never happened? My wife will be disappointed to hear that...

On the other hand, how much money have juries awarded plantiff's families for wrongful death, which you claim is not a loss?

Jim

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

How long can you guys hold out without a contract?

Is dat what you really said? Even I know better.

Did the west lose their contract? Again? Per Federal Law, the east has a contract. One that is modified by various and sundry letters of agreement. The pay concession apart of letter 93 went away December 31, 2009.

It will be nice to see the mini-bus captain make industry standard again, per contract, even if only for the east.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The pay concession apart of letter 93 went away December 31, 2009.

Would you bet the rest of your career on that - you are, you know. Of is that the "I want it to be true so I'll just say it's true" coming out.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

If Silver thinks she can inhibit bargaining she will just delay it until the 9th reviews and repeats that the court stays out.

This is for Swan also....

[2] No published case has expressly addressed when a
DFR claim based on a union’s negotiation of a CBA becomes
ripe. Thus, we apply the general principles underlying the
ripeness doctrine and take guidance from our decisions
regarding the related issue of when a DFR claim accrues for
statute of limitations purposes in the context of the administration
of a CBA. We conclude that Plaintiffs’ DFR claim is
not yet ripe.

Two facts.

1. The 9th said, there is no case history. i.e. this is the first time in history a union has been elected for the purpose of failing in its DFR. So, we don't know WTF to do about it. So, we will kick the can down the road, and see if these two parties can work it out and save us all the problem of setting precedence that ambulance chasing scumbags like Seeham will misinterpret and use to gum up the judicial system.

2. Nowhere in the 9ths ruling do they ever address the company's liability for colluding with usapa by reneging on the TA.


So, Silver could easily tell the company, yep, you signed a contract that says Nic. Yep, you "accepted" Nic. Yep, you collude with usapa, and the West class has you by the nads. But, I am in noway going to interfere with your decisions of how to run your bussiness or how to "bargain" with your DFR convicted union. Go forth and do as you please. You are "free to bargain" all you like.

 

[nevergiveup]

So if I get hit by a truck today, and lose the 10+years of life the actuaries say I have coming I've lost nothing since that 10+ years of extra life never happened? My wife will be disappointed to hear that...

On the other hand, how much money have juries awarded plantiff's families for wrongful death, which you claim is not a loss?

Jim

Watch out for meteors!! It could happen.

 

[nic4us]

I'm sure this has been covered a million time and we are about to find out what the good Judge Silver thinks, but does this paragraph concern you guys, or do you zoom in on the "west pilots being harmed" part and skip the rest?

THE COURT: What would you have argued to the Ninth
10 Circuit had you been a party? You're in front of the Ninth 0229
11 Circuit now. What would you have argued that would change the
12 complexion of the case? It seems to me, as I've read the case
13 again and again, that the majority opinion was -- they were
14 adamant about taking the position, which is supported by the
15 case law, that they are to defer where there are collective 0253
16 bargaining agreement negotiations. So they were just going to
17 keep away from that no matter what. No question the Court
18 embraced the issue that there was harm to the West Pilots.
19 That was clear. Nonetheless, they were not -- still, this was
20 something that could be negotiated and they felt it would be 0220
21 negotiated and even though US Air was not present, that it
22 still could be negotiated so why is it any different?

Also, section XII B of the TA says the TA can be amended by written agreement by both parties. USAPA now represents the west, so what's the problem? I've argued before that we are not changing the TA, but the final contract. Again we will see if that is correct and if the judge thinks it's legal.

XII. Effective Date, Modification, Status of Letter Not addressed in the Pilots’ Agreement.
of Agreement, and Duration
This Letter of Agreement:
A. Will take effect on the date of execution set
forth below;
B. May be modified by written agreement of
ALPA and all the other parties hereto in existence
at the time;


Well there is the problem right there....

i.e. ALPA national could not change the TA. Only agreement between the company, the east pilot group, and the West pilot group, can modify the TA.

So, if usapa and the company modify the TA without the West pilots input, or in a manner detrimental to the West pilot's position, even individually at this point, ripe hybrid DFR right now, with established collusion on the part of the company.

 

[Pi brat]

XII. Effective Date, Modification, Status of Letter Not addressed in the Pilots’ Agreement.
of Agreement, and Duration
This Letter of Agreement:
A. Will take effect on the date of execution set
forth below;
B. May be modified by written agreement of
ALPA and all the other parties hereto in existence
at the time;


Well there is the problem right there....

i.e. ALPA national could not change the TA. Only agreement between the company, the east pilot group, and the West pilot group, can modify the TA.

So, if usapa and the company modify the TA without the West pilots input, or in a manner detrimental to the West pilot's position, even individually at this point, ripe hybrid DFR right now, with established collusion on the part of the company.

That's not what my copy of the TA says for XII. Maybe I'm looking at a draft or something, I will look on cactuspilot and USAPA to see. Anyway, as you guys have said, when you see ALPA, you substitute USAPA and viola, you're done. The parties are all still here, just represented by another entity.

 

[mrbreeze]

XII. Effective Date, Modification, Status of Letter Not addressed in the Pilots’ Agreement.
of Agreement, and Duration
This Letter of Agreement:
A. Will take effect on the date of execution set
forth below;
B. May be modified by written agreement of
ALPA and all the other parties hereto in existence
at the time;


Well there is the problem right there....

i.e. ALPA national could not change the TA. Only agreement between the company, the east pilot group, and the West pilot group, can modify the TA.

So, if usapa and the company modify the TA without the West pilots input, or in a manner detrimental to the West pilot's position, even individually at this point, ripe hybrid DFR right now, with established collusion on the part of the company.

IMHO, the TA can be rewritten with a filter, so to speak, in place that would allow the integration to move forward, but at a slower pace to accomodate the East pilot retirements while including the NIC. This would pacify the East pilots and also the West pilots. The East just wants to retain the attrition that was brought to the table while making their exit into retirement, and the West would get their NIC, effecting future flying and their careers.

I am no genius, but I think it has merit and that a DFR case may test the idea, but it would be hard to prove that a DFR actually happened, since the rewrite is a process to move things forward.....any court will like to see it move forward.
breeze

 

[prechilill]

IMHO, the TA can be rewritten with a filter, so to speak, in place that would allow the integration to move forward, but at a slower pace to accomodate the East pilot retirements while including the NIC. This would pacify the East pilots and also the West pilots. The East just wants to retain the attrition that was brought to the table while making their exit into retirement, and the West would get their NIC, effecting future flying and their careers.

I am no genius, but I think it has merit and that a DFR case may test the idea, but it would be hard to prove that a DFR actually happened, since the rewrite is a process to move things forward.....any court will like to see it move forward.
breeze

Agreed. Can't comment on the DFR part but it seems like a plausible idea anyway. You guys have come a long way since our mediation and arbitration..

 

[CallawayGolf]

IMHO, the TA can be rewritten with a filter, so to speak, in place that would allow the integration to move forward, but at a slower pace to accomodate the East pilot retirements while including the NIC. This would pacify the East pilots and also the West pilots. The East just wants to retain the attrition that was brought to the table while making their exit into retirement, and the West would get their NIC, effecting future flying and their careers.

I am no genius, but I think it has merit and that a DFR case may test the idea, but it would be hard to prove that a DFR actually happened, since the rewrite is a process to move things forward.....any court will like to see it move forward.
breeze

Do you honestly think anyone will be moving off their current positions until the DJ matter is settled? The west and Management are both convinced that a DFR is nearly certain if a different list is accepted. USAPA can accept the NIC today and put an end to all this but beyond that the course has been laid out and there are no exists or detours so moving forward via the DJ is the only viable choice for Management and the west. If Silver kicks the can like the Ninth did, then your suggestion might be open for some kind of discussion with Management if they have no other choice as a means of getting to a JCBA. That will simply not happen while the DJ is still being adjudicated.

 

[nic4us]

That's not what my copy of the TA says for XII. Maybe I'm looking at a draft or something, I will look on cactuspilot and USAPA to see. Anyway, as you guys have said, when you see ALPA, you substitue USAPA and viola, you're done. The parties are all still here, just represented by another entity.

That was a straight copy/paste from the copy of the TA I have been quoting for the last 6 years.

The bolded part of your statement is the point I have been trying to make since Seeham came to the scene, and why his scam would not work.

The West pilots are represented by usapa. usapa has a DFR owed to the West pilots. Therefore, usapa cannot unilaterally change the position held by the West pilots to their detriment. In other words, usapa cannot tell the West pilots, hey, we represent you, so, if we want your opinion we will give it to you, and oh, by the way, your new opinion is you should all just rool over and give us your job positions.

Stephan understood what electing usapa meant to the east. No legally liable West entity to negotiate away from the Nic, while at the same time 1884 individual West pilots who all have a claim to the Nic. So, by electing usapa, the east gave up on any chance at compromise. I think Cleary just got the same opinion, hence the attempted offer of mediation. Also, Kirby said in a crewnews some time ago, that maybe the company DJ would get the West pilots a legal status to negotiate some form of compromise. So, it appears just about all the players see it this way in some form or another.

 

[nic4us]

IMHO, the TA can be rewritten with a filter, so to speak, in place that would allow the integration to move forward, but at a slower pace to accomodate the East pilot retirements while including the NIC. This would pacify the East pilots and also the West pilots. The East just wants to retain the attrition that was brought to the table while making their exit into retirement, and the West would get their NIC, effecting future flying and their careers.

I am no genius, but I think it has merit and that a DFR case may test the idea, but it would be hard to prove that a DFR actually happened, since the rewrite is a process to move things forward.....any court will like to see it move forward.
breeze

Still sounds like a gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today scheme.

Seriously Breeze, I wanted you guys to get upgrades and advancement, just not at my or other West pilots expense.

The merger brought new opportunity for advancement. Just ask Coello. He got his job back, moved up rapidly, and is in a much greater position because of the merger. Now, what exactly did the merger and the east pilots BS do for Odell?

Bottom line, at this point, it will be the Nic, unmodified. Contract shennanigans to dilute industry standard seniority rights would likely get met with opposition barring their implementation, and then we don't move forward.

 

[Move2CLT]

IMHO, the TA can be rewritten with a filter, so to speak, in place that would allow the integration to move forward, but at a slower pace to accomodate the East pilot retirements while including the NIC. This would pacify the East pilots and also the West pilots. The East just wants to retain the attrition that was brought to the table while making their exit into retirement, and the West would get their NIC, effecting future flying and their careers.

I am no genius, but I think it has merit and that a DFR case may test the idea, but it would be hard to prove that a DFR actually happened, since the rewrite is a process to move things forward.....any court will like to see it move forward.
breeze

If the TA could be rewritten, then it would have long ago.

USAPA would have used it as leverage by giving away the west min fleet count.

It can't be rewritten.

 

[Pi brat]

That was a straight copy/paste from the copy of the TA I have been quoting for the last 6 years.

The bolded part of your statement is the point I have been trying to make since Seeham came to the scene, and why his scam would not work.

The West pilots are represented by usapa. usapa has a DFR owed to the West pilots. Therefore, usapa cannot unilaterally change the position held by the West pilots to their detriment. In other words, usapa cannot tell the West pilots, hey, we represent you, so, if we want your opinion we will give it to you, and oh, by the way, your new opinion is you should all just rool over and give us your job positions.

Stephan understood what electing usapa meant to the east. No legally liable West entity to negotiate away from the Nic, while at the same time 1884 individual West pilots who all have a claim to the Nic. So, by electing usapa, the east gave up on any chance at compromise. I think Cleary just got the same opinion, hence the attempted offer of mediation. Also, Kirby said in a crewnews some time ago, that maybe the company DJ would get the West pilots a legal status to negotiate some form of compromise. So, it appears just about all the players see it this way in some form or another.

That's weird. It's different from the copy on the USAPA site. I believe you, it's just different. I can't cut and paste from my copy, maybe I don't understand Adobe, but sometimes I can, sometimes I can't. Is there a copy on cactuspilot? Couldn't find it.

I have never argued that changing the Nic wouldn't be a case for a DFR against USAPA. I don't see the TA being changed, I see the final contract not containing it, just like it won't contain other parts of the TA, like possibly the min fleet, at least unchanged. I think the company had and has a good argument for being left out of it. Whatever, Judge Silver will tell us. Then SFO. Then DCA. ;-)