US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

The company believes that USAPA would push this position into federal mediation and potentially get released to self-help.

Yeah, I know Doug and the boys were really losing sleep over that one!

 

[767jetz]

What I am saying is the west's reaction is typical of what we have seen before, spanked etc.

Come on Pi. With all due respect, can't you say the same for your east brothers here? In fact it is Black Swan who first coined the childish "spanked" phrase that everyone has adopted. He and a few others would scream "VICTORY!" from the rooftops at every turn.

I don't know how this will play out, especially with AA's situation now. But at the very least maybe some hardliners will start to rethink their hand, and maybe this will finally be the beginning of some closure.

 

[Pi brat]

Come on Pi. With all due respect, can't you say the same for your east brothers here? In fact it is Black Swan who first coined the childish "spanked" phrase that everyone has adopted. He and a few others would scream "VICTORY!" from the rooftops at every turn.

I don't know how this will play out, especially with AA's situation now. But at the very least maybe some hardliners will start to rethink their hand, and maybe this will finally be the beginning of some closure.

Absolutely. The term "spanked" often originates from east computers. You can't imagine how many times I've said "The Nic is certainly not dead" after SFO ruled.

It would be premature from us too. I just don't see this over soon, unless a AA merger makes that happen.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You are the one with reading comprehension problems. Where has ANYONE except the West said it has to be the NIC
or better ????

NICDOA
NPJB

I agree that in theory it doesn't have to be the Nic. As I once said, Cleary could copy the Nic award verbatem except remove all reference to the arbitration, Nicolau and ALPA, call the result Mikey's award and present it to the company as USAPA's proposed seniority list. Voila - no Nic and no lDFR. But to address your question more directly, the 9th said 2 things (paraphrasing):

1 - USAPA's current proposal harms the West, and
2 - USAPA can have any seniority proposal it wants as long as it does not do the harm the west fears. NOTE: harm the west fears, not harm the company fears, not harm USAPA fears, not harm the east fears, not harm Barrister fears. Harm the west fears.

And that's not even counting anything Silver might do...

So what does the west fear? Less protection than the Nic. So a USAPA proposal can't be worse for the west than the NIC, according to the 9th, or it's DFR II and "guilty" for USAPA.

Insist that the current USAPA proposal doesn't harm the west all you want. Shout it from the rooftops. The 9th said otherwise and said to USAPA "Don't do that" or you're guilty of a DFR. An unquestionably ripe DFR. And the beauty of it is that the court doesn't have to interfere in negotiations. They just get to spank USAPA if it doesn't do what the court told it to do...not harm the west as the west fears...

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

They just get to spank USAPA if it doesn't do what the court told it to do...

Jim

See jetz! Oh yeah, we don't claim him anymore, we let the west adopt him.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Did they judge then ask the company what the he$$ they were doing there then?

Good catch!

The vocal west idiots have no idea what is happening, which could be scary for the east.

 

[OTTER574]

Can you further define that? Will USAPA not be able to appeal to SFO, then SCOTUS? Will the judge change the TA to allow the Nic to be used before a joint contract? If not, will she take away membership ratification?

I just don't see the end as near, but I'm listening.

So easties, if you don't like the outcome of the DJ. By all means appeal to the 9th on a DJ filed by the company as a plaintiff. What will the 9th state if they decide to hear it or most likely not hear it?

Answer = The company signed the TA/CONTRACT. The company must abide by the TA/CONTRACT..DONE. BTW usapa, become a union for all lcc pilots and don't waist our valuable time anymore.

OTTER

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

...exposing $e$ham as the ambulance chasing money drainer of emotional nitwits.

So, you are aligned with the USAPA president. Good to know.

 

[FL430]

They are bound in a tripartite agreement and it would take the curts to unwind it.


You have been given a great gift - to do the right thing. Pretending the Nic doesn't exist or that Addington is dead is not going to change the fact that you'll be working under LOA 93 until you figure this out. Time is running out for you as your fellow east pilots grow weary. Why continue the wait for the inevitable? It's time for you to ove on, accept the Nic, and work with us for a better contract.

Believing in anything other than the Nic is going to leave you a bitter FO when a new contract is voted onto this property. It's time for you to rip that bandaid off.

Nah, don't think so. I like things just the way they are. I will stay on LOA93 just to keep you west of the Mississippi. You like apples?

How bout them apples........

 

[fodase]

From a west attendee

Hearing began with Silver denying once again USAPA’s objections to West class cert. She then granted the motion to add three West class reps after first asking Andy Jacob why they were being added. It seemed she asked Andy this just so it went on the record.

She then went right into the subject at hand and started questioning Szymanski about why they feel they need discovery. He basically went into a long winded circular argument that things have changed since the Addington case and he felt that USAPA needed to address these changes.

I believe that in order to probe Szmanski, Judge Silver played a little coy and asked if Judge Wake affirmed the Nicolau or not. Her reasoning was that if he did affirm it, what has changed since then.

This gave Szmanski the opportunity to argue that since there have been base closures and a reversal of fortune for the West pilots that changing the seniority proposal was within USAPA’s right as the circumstances have changed since 2005.

At some point Marty Harper jumped in and just pounded USAPA by stating that by allowing discovery and the merits of the Nic to be heard, the court would be rewarding USAPA for evading their responsibility of implementing the Nic.

She then went back to asking if they were going to argue that the Nic was not valid and if anything had changed. Somehow the DC case that ALPA filed was mentioned and this was the big moment when Szymanski was backed into a corner by Silver. She asked that if the East MECs case in DC District Court had merit, why did USAPA drop the case when they assumed representational authority. This moment was priceless.

Szymanski made a half hearted attempt of justifying the DOH list with C&R’s by illustrating how they protected senior PSA pilots who live on the West Coast from bidding into Phoenix.

Marty did an outstanding job of simplifying the case and cutting through USAPA’s bs. To respond to Szymanski’s claim that things have changed, he agreed by basically saying the West has seen furloughs, stagnation, and other damages through USAPA’s failure to implement the Nicolau Award. He also mentioned the potential AA merger and how under USAPA’s DOH plan, the West would take all of the furloughs. He mentioned that the unfairness of the C&R’s was already validated by Captain Mowrey’s testimony in Addington and the subsequent guilty verdict from the jury.

The good stuff really started happening when Szymanski tried arguing that USAPA wasn’t bound by any agreements made by ALPA. He argued that the Nic was an ALPA product and his client was not bound by ALPA internal agreements.

This cued up Bob Siegel to interrupt and clarify the whole process. He outlined for the judge that it wasn’t the product of ALPA, rather a product of a process outlined in the ALPA Constitution that provided for negotiation, mediation, followed by arbitration. He correctly stated that the Nic was a product of a private arbitration outside of ALPA paid for by each side’s pilots and that each side had to use merger counsel independent of ALPA. If that wasn’t enough, he stated that this process was the one the Company agreed to in the TA and they would accept the list from the parties as long as it complied with the terms of the TA to contain costs. He then stated the Company accepted the list. He went to say that since 2008 USAPA has been trying to get the Company to alter the TA and accept a different seniority list and the Company could not agree to do so as it would be a violation of the contract they signed.

Judge Silver looked pleased with this explanation and even complimented Siegel on the great education. She then turned to Szymanski, slightly annoyed in my opinion, and asked why he called it an ALPA arbitration when it was clearly not. Another priceless moment.

Siegel’s proclamation basically ended the hearing. She announced that she would decide counts 1 and 2 via a summary judgment and wanted briefs filed by January 17th with rebuttals filed by February 1st. Syzmanski wanted more time so she gave him 10 more days with a February 10th deadline.

She then stated that she would decide counts 1 and 2 on an expedited basis. If counts 1 and 2 didn’t go USAPA’s way, then there would be no need for discovery. If she found a decision on count 3 was needed, she would then hold another hearing on discovery. At no time did she state that there would be a hearing prior to her expedited decision on counts 1 and 2.

She then asked if anyone had anything else and this is where Szmanski brought up the offer of mediation. I couldn’t hear Silver’s response as there was laughter in the room but she basically said no that it wasn’t possible and the parties needed a decision from her court.

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Nah, don't think so. I like things just the way they are. I will stay on LOA93 just to keep you west of the Mississippi. You like apples?

How bout them apples........

Huzza, huzza.

 

[OTTER574]

From a west attendee

Hearing began with Silver denying once again USAPA’s objections to West class cert. She then granted the motion to add three West class reps after first asking Andy Jacob why they were being added. It seemed she asked Andy this just so it went on the record.

She then went right into the subject at hand and started questioning Szymanski about why they feel they need discovery. He basically went into a long winded circular argument that things have changed since the Addington case and he felt that USAPA needed to address these changes.

I believe that in order to probe Szmanski, Judge Silver played a little coy and asked if Judge Wake affirmed the Nicolau or not. Her reasoning was that if he did affirm it, what has changed since then.

This gave Szmanski the opportunity to argue that since there have been base closures and a reversal of fortune for the West pilots that changing the seniority proposal was within USAPA’s right as the circumstances have changed since 2005.

At some point Marty Harper jumped in and just pounded USAPA by stating that by allowing discovery and the merits of the Nic to be heard, the court would be rewarding USAPA for evading their responsibility of implementing the Nic.

She then went back to asking if they were going to argue that the Nic was not valid and if anything had changed. Somehow the DC case that ALPA filed was mentioned and this was the big moment when Szymanski was backed into a corner by Silver. She asked that if the East MECs case in DC District Court had merit, why did USAPA drop the case when they assumed representational authority. This moment was priceless.

Szymanski made a half hearted attempt of justifying the DOH list with C&R’s by illustrating how they protected senior PSA pilots who live on the West Coast from bidding into Phoenix.

Marty did an outstanding job of simplifying the case and cutting through USAPA’s bs. To respond to Szymanski’s claim that things have changed, he agreed by basically saying the West has seen furloughs, stagnation, and other damages through USAPA’s failure to implement the Nicolau Award. He also mentioned the potential AA merger and how under USAPA’s DOH plan, the West would take all of the furloughs. He mentioned that the unfairness of the C&R’s was already validated by Captain Mowrey’s testimony in Addington and the subsequent guilty verdict from the jury.

The good stuff really started happening when Szymanski tried arguing that USAPA wasn’t bound by any agreements made by ALPA. He argued that the Nic was an ALPA product and his client was not bound by ALPA internal agreements.

This cued up Bob Siegel to interrupt and clarify the whole process. He outlined for the judge that it wasn’t the product of ALPA, rather a product of a process outlined in the ALPA Constitution that provided for negotiation, mediation, followed by arbitration. He correctly stated that the Nic was a product of a private arbitration outside of ALPA paid for by each side’s pilots and that each side had to use merger counsel independent of ALPA. If that wasn’t enough, he stated that this process was the one the Company agreed to in the TA and they would accept the list from the parties as long as it complied with the terms of the TA to contain costs. He then stated the Company accepted the list. He went to say that since 2008 USAPA has been trying to get the Company to alter the TA and accept a different seniority list and the Company could not agree to do so as it would be a violation of the contract they signed.

Judge Silver looked pleased with this explanation and even complimented Siegel on the great education. She then turned to Szymanski, slightly annoyed in my opinion, and asked why he called it an ALPA arbitration when it was clearly not. Another priceless moment.

Siegel’s proclamation basically ended the hearing. She announced that she would decide counts 1 and 2 via a summary judgment and wanted briefs filed by January 17th with rebuttals filed by February 1st. Syzmanski wanted more time so she gave him 10 more days with a February 10th deadline.

She then stated that she would decide counts 1 and 2 on an expedited basis. If counts 1 and 2 didn’t go USAPA’s way, then there would be no need for discovery. If she found a decision on count 3 was needed, she would then hold another hearing on discovery. At no time did she state that there would be a hearing prior to her expedited decision on counts 1 and 2.

She then asked if anyone had anything else and this is where Szmanski brought up the offer of mediation. I couldn’t hear Silver’s response as there was laughter in the room but she basically said no that it wasn’t possible and the parties needed a decision from her court.


Absolutely priceless and worth every penny I paid to AOL to defend my legal rights against a company and union corruption!

http://www.armyofleonidas.org/

OTTER

 

[Pi brat]

So easties, if you don't like the outcome of the DJ. By all means appeal to the 9th on a DJ filed by the company as a plaintiff. What will the 9th state if they decide to hear it or most likely not hear it?

Answer = The company signed the TA/CONTRACT. The company must abide by the TA/CONTRACT..DONE. BTW usapa, become a union for all lcc pilots and don't waist our valuable time anymore.

OTTER

Okay. Would you care to layout a timeline with your prediction? Maybe the date of the first bid open to all pilots?

 

[Beancounter]

Nah, don't think so. I like things just the way they are. I will stay on LOA93 just to keep you west of the Mississippi. You like apples?

How bout them apples........

No, NOOOoooooooo! Please don't throw me in the briar patch! HaaaHHAHAHHAHH! You're joking right?

My first choice was Alaska, second America West. I like being west of the Mississippi!

 

[Iclubbabyseals]

Okay. Would you care to layout a timeline with your prediction? Maybe the date of the first bid open to all pilots?

You know, baiting the mentally handicapped is frowned on. Not that they would notice.