US Pilots Labor Discussion

[OTTER574]

Just so so. Only about 5 years and counting of DOH. We hope to do better.

RR

RR, I believe the company may have something to say about this going forward and quite frankly, is in the drivers seat. (injunction) Thanks to the dumb, corrupt, stupid east ran usapa.

I will say though, there's a growing group out west that want to keep the phx hub intact and in a strange way, usapa in it's illegal doh mantra keeps the TA min fleet/block hours for phx. Middle to top 20-30% out west will probably not vote in any contract if it means downsizing phx and forcing commuting out east unless there's big bucks/improvements in the next NIC contract. Quality of life, especially for the west coast phx based commuters.

OTTER

 

[Keroseneuser]

I will say though, there's a growing group out west that want to keep the phx hub intact and in a strange way, usapa in it's illegal doh mantra keeps the TA min fleet/block hours for phx. Middle to top 20-30% out west will probably not vote in any contract if it means downsizing phx and forcing commuting out east unless there's big bucks/improvements in the next NIC contract. Quality of life, especially for the west coast phx based commuters.

OTTER

I still don't think tempe will cough up enough money to get a NIC passed. It would have to be enough to get the east to accept a NIC, BUT also enough to get the west to vote for it for the reasons you listed above.

In an odd way, if that is how it goes down the majority will end up getting what they want. The west senior guys won't get PHX gutted and the east guys won't have to do a NIC. Thats not to say there won't be a bunch with their undies in a wad over it though. 10k pages on this thread here we come !

I do think the companies new found interest in resolving the pilot issue has to do with them needing the Transition agreement out of the way so they can do what they like route, equipment, and base wise. Possible AA merger or whatever it may be.

 

[OTTER574]

I still don't think tempe will cough up enough money to get a NIC passed. It would have to be enough to get the east to accept a NIC, BUT also enough to get the west to vote for it for the reasons you listed above.

In an odd way, if that is how it goes down the majority will end up getting what they want. The west senior guys won't get PHX gutted and the east guys won't have to do a NIC. Thats not to say there won't be a bunch with their undies in a wad over it though. 10k pages on this thread here we come !

I do think the companies new found interest in resolving the pilot issue has to do with them needing the Transition agreement out of the way so they can do what they like route, equipment, and base wise. Possible AA merger or whatever it may be.

Yes I agree. The moderate east may be the ones to vote in a new contract with a % of west. The company is in the drivers seat and what they stated in front of Judge Silver makes me believe they want something done in regards to a joint contract. Wish we as a pilot group had more leverage (honest union) and not be in this position because of east ran usapa.

OTTER

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Nicky Baby! We are willing to take a fence: The fence that Nicolau placed on the FINAL & BINDING ARBITRATION. That would be the process that all three parties agreed to in the beginning. That has since passed, AND you are presently at a SIX YEAR fence (and counting). You will take what the judge and the company give you, and you will like it (apologies Ted Baxter ala Judge Smails)!!

You don't even have to be "OK with it". It will be in the form of a vote ratified contract. Keep voting it down until there is enough money in it that you choke. My guess is that the senior captains will be tired of following the lead lemming Cleary, and will turn away from the cliff for the cash. IMHO.

BTW, If the NIC is a lottery ticket then you must be the untold number of "cousins" that creep out of the woodwork asking for a handout.

What part of Final and Binding do they not get?

 

[cactusboy53]

I still don't think tempe will cough up enough money to get a NIC passed. It would have to be enough to get the east to accept a NIC, BUT also enough to get the west to vote for it for the reasons you listed above.

In an odd way, if that is how it goes down the majority will end up getting what they want. The west senior guys won't get PHX gutted and the east guys won't have to do a NIC. Thats not to say there won't be a bunch with their undies in a wad over it though. 10k pages on this thread here we come !

I do think the companies new found interest in resolving the pilot issue has to do with them needing the Transition agreement out of the way so they can do what they like route, equipment, and base wise. Possible AA merger or whatever it may be.

And yet the rumor is still strong that LCC has already offered DAL wages & the AWA contract once. You don't think that would pass? Really?

 

[Keroseneuser]

Yes I agree. The moderate east may be the ones to vote in a new contract with a % of west. The company is in the drivers seat and what they stated in front of Judge Silver makes me believe they want something done in regards to a joint contract. Wish we as a pilot group had more leverage (honest union) and not be in this position because of east ran usapa.

OTTER

The real test would be to see if the company would agree to a joint contract with Base protections in it. I doubt tempe would even be willing to discuss the subject. Lastest bid out on the east is adding more lines to just about all fleet types. I don't know if that is more time added or just cutting back on the reserves or whatever. However since nothing is stopping Tempe from Adding time wherever they want, it kinda looks like they might want the transition agreement gone so they can shift a bunch east. Bid also included 41 newhires I think it was, and we are still a year away from age 65.

If we do end up with a NIC through the courts or whatever. It might end up being very bad for a lot of folks who are pushing hard for it. I know a lot of PSA guy that were born and raised in Cali that have been east coast residents for 20 years now.

 

[cactusboy53]

The real test would be to see if the company would agree to a joint contract with Base protections in it. I doubt tempe would even be willing to discuss the subject. Lastest bid out on the east is adding more lines to just about all fleet types. I don't know if that is more time added or just cutting back on the reserves or whatever. However since nothing is stopping Tempe from Adding time wherever they want, it kinda looks like they might want the transition agreement gone so they can shift a bunch east. Bid also included 41 newhires I think it was, and we are still a year away from age 65.

If we do end up with a NIC through the courts or whatever. It might end up being very bad for a lot of folks who are pushing hard for it. I know a lot of PSA guy that were born and raised in Cali that have been east coast residents for 20 years now.

What does "end up being very bad for a lot of folks" mean EXACTLY?

 

[Keroseneuser]

What does "end up being very bad for a lot of folks" mean EXACTLY?

By "very bad" I mean a bunch of guys that were born and raised and have families on the west coast being pushed into a 5 hour commute to the east coast to get to work. I commuted for about 10 years and by far it is the single most stressful and crap side of this job. I only ever had a 1:15 minute plane ride for any of my commuting max and if i had a 14 day line, commuting normally added at least 4 days to that per month. Most of the time it was more like 5 or 6 days. For a reserve guy it means only sleeping in your own bed 6 to 8 nights a month.

I would not even remotely want to attempt a 5 hour commute. With the lines we now have, early show, late finish. The average 4 day trip would streatch to 6 easy.

For that matter, any integrated contract might end up bad for a lot of folks. I think Tempe for whatever reason really wants the transition agreement gone. I don't think it is so they can gut CLT and PHL and move time west.

 

[OTTER574]

The real test would be to see if the company would agree to a joint contract with Base protections in it. I doubt tempe would even be willing to discuss the subject. Lastest bid out on the east is adding more lines to just about all fleet types. I don't know if that is more time added or just cutting back on the reserves or whatever. However since nothing is stopping Tempe from Adding time wherever they want, it kinda looks like they might want the transition agreement gone so they can shift a bunch east. Bid also included 41 newhires I think it was, and we are still a year away from age 65.

If we do end up with a NIC through the courts or whatever. It might end up being very bad for a lot of folks who are pushing hard for it. I know a lot of PSA guy that were born and raised in Cali that have been east coast residents for 20 years now.

You need to look at all the numbers and not just what a very bias and corrupt company/usapa provides you. The east receives 2/3rds of all combined east/west upgrades with the nic plus the top 517 is a given. The east has a high % of f/o's retiring from seat which means no movement.

The no-bump-no-flush clause doesn't mean squat in a future merger and the LEGAL NIC list will stand going forward.

OTTER

 

[Keroseneuser]

You need to look at all the numbers and not just what a very bias and corrupt company/usapa provides you. The east receives 2/3rds of all combined east/west upgrades with the nic plus the top 517 is a given. The east has a high % of f/o's retiring from seat which means no movement.

The no-bump-no-flush clause doesn't mean squat in a future merger and the LEGAL NIC list will stand going forward.

OTTER

Thats why I said ANY integration might be bad for a lot of guys in the response to Cactusboy.

After 3000+ pages of the same crap on the NIC, DOH etc I am staying out of it at much as I can. It does no good.

My comment about the NIC being voted in maybe should have read "any joint contract" being voted in if there is no protections for the existing bases.

NIC, DOH, New list as yet unknown, AA or whatever it ends up being. We will know when we know after all the legal battles are over, and appealed, and over, and appealed again etc. etc. Nothing we do or say on here is going to change how this process is going to go this far into it.

If you meant the comment about the december bid. that did not come from USAPA. That is company issued info. I think it was 41 "new pilots" I think was the term they used for the DEC bid, along with lines added to everything except 73 I think. Could be for 73's retiring, but no lines were reduced from the 73's on the bid that I remember.

 

[nic4us]

Illegal. They all paid. And the convoluted logic that since no one was paying no one could be a rep was just that, convoluted. The NMB clearly understood the chicken and the egg self imposed membership question, and recognized the BPR reacted properly. Thus the requirement that dues and fees be paid retroactive to April 18, 2008. Again, this sounds like a typical West argument...poor poor us, locked out by the East.

That simply was not the case. Not participating was a strategy I will always argue that was counterproductive. Had they actually been able to get even 80% of their pilots a vote, and 3 reps early on, they could have moved elections and policy. As of now, they still cannot even get 500 to even join, making me think those 500 were more than happy to simply not pay fees for a year, with no concern for union activities.

RR

Speaking of revisionist history...that entire lie you just told reeks of it.

First, the usapa C&BLs dictated that membership had to be approved by the domicile REP. PHX did have pilots paying usapa dues from day one, who had to contact usapa months on end to see if they were even members or not, who never got answeres to their membership question. But for certain, there was no PHX domicile REP, not even a usapa appointed temporary REP from the east or anything. SO, PHX had zero representation for close to a year, and had no means for West pilots to even become members according to the usapa C&BLs.

Second, Boeing Boy is correct and the C&BLs were amended to allow BPR authorization of membership.

Third, the arbitrator's ruling in the Suzie case was so convoluted, I read it thinking to myself, is this woman even addressing the case that was in front of her, because she was not even answereing the questions put before her.

Fourth, the allegations in the RICO were never proven. However, what is an undeniable fact in that case is usapa lost. The fake unions attempt at shutting down AWAPPA, and going after West pilot's legal coordination and financing capabilities backfired on usapa. Not only did the West back up the RICO guys somewhat, we put the money together in AOL and blew usapa out of the water.

 

[Reed Richards]

You need to look at all the numbers and not just what a very bias and corrupt company/usapa provides you. The east receives 2/3rds of all combined east/west upgrades with the nic plus the top 517 is a given. The east has a high % of f/o's retiring from seat which means no movement.

The no-bump-no-flush clause doesn't mean squat in a future merger and the LEGAL NIC list will stand going forward.

OTTER

I actually was accepting of the NIC when I first saw what it did to me personally. In one instant I would never, ever fly any of the widebodies on property, ever. But I told my best friend and my wife that was it. It was over.

It was only days later when more of the details came out that I blew up...specifically a guy with almost 17 years unbroken service going behind a new hire.

I will spend my last vote never allowing that to occur.

Thanks though for at least having some discussion here, but it is over for these two groups. They will never be merged unless it is within the context of a more M&A.

PHX will never be "protected" in a merger, nor will PHL and CLT. Does not work that way. Been through this too many times.

RR

 

[Keroseneuser]

If you meant the comment about the december bid. that did not come from USAPA. That is company issued info. I think it was 41 "new pilots" I think was the term they used for the DEC bid, along with lines added to everything except 73 I think. Could be for 73's retiring, but no lines were reduced from the 73's on the bid that I remember.

Just to clarify I looked it up:

december bid 12-11 for month of march 2012. One month Bid.

Add PHL 330 lines
Add CLT 76I and PHL 76I lines
Add 319 lines
Add e190 lines
Add 44 Pilots to support schedule.

Since nothing is happening on the PHX side that I have heard of in this regard, AND the company is wanting to resolve the pilot issue after 6 years all the sudden. It leads me to belive they really would love to transfer a bunch of A/C and pilots east. Best they can do now is a 50/50 split to add a/c and hire "44 pilots to support schedule" on the east.

 

[cleardirect]

Thats why I said ANY integration might be bad for a lot of guys in the response to Cactusboy.

After 3000+ pages of the same crap on the NIC, DOH etc I am staying out of it at much as I can. It does no good.

My comment about the NIC being voted in maybe should have read "any joint contract" being voted in if there is no protections for the existing bases.

NIC, DOH, New list as yet unknown, AA or whatever it ends up being. We will know when we know after all the legal battles are over, and appealed, and over, and appealed again etc. etc. Nothing we do or say on here is going to change how this process is going to go this far into it.

If you meant the comment about the december bid. that did not come from USAPA. That is company issued info. I think it was 41 "new pilots" I think was the term they used for the DEC bid, along with lines added to everything except 73 I think. Could be for 73's retiring, but no lines were reduced from the 73's on the bid that I remember.

I just looked at the bid. If I am reading it correctly. (Jim help me out)

A real loss of 2 captains. Adding 44 new hires but a true increase of only 42 F/O's.

Appears to be seasonal increase of 76 F/O's and a couple 330 F/O's. Does not look like any real movement to me. So much for that attrition. Something did catch my eye. 4 terminations. What are you guys doing over there?

 

[Reed Richards]

Speaking of revisionist history...that entire lie you just told reeks of it.

First, the usapa C&BLs dictated that membership had to be approved by the domicile REP. PHX did have pilots paying usapa dues from day one, who had to contact usapa months on end to see if they were even members or not, who never got answeres to their membership question. But for certain, there was no PHX domicile REP, not even a usapa appointed temporary REP from the east or anything. SO, PHX had zero representation for close to a year, and had no means for West pilots to even become members according to the usapa C&BLs.

Second, Boeing Boy is correct and the C&BLs were amended to allow BPR authorization of membership.

Third, the arbitrator's ruling in the Suzie case was so convoluted, I read it thinking to myself, is this woman even addressing the case that was in front of her, because she was not even answereing the questions put before her.

What is the "lie" I am telling? Who anticipated a scenario where NOBODY paid dues, and pilots were threatened if they did and stepped up as reps?

BB is correct, the CBL had to be amended, as soon as possible. It was. The NMB recognized that as a legitimate solution to let pilots join who chose to pay. Why is that a lie?

As to your comments about Ms. Whit, go figure...an arbitration one side is not happy with. Although you have to give any arbitrator a little leeway after spending time in the room with crazy Suzi. That had to be a real scene. Did she bring her kids and toys?

The question before her was should Suzi be fired. That was put aside early as USAPA argued they were NOT trying to fire her, only determine the obligations of all pilots to pay dues and fees back to 18 Apr 08. The question was asked and answered. Would you rather have had crazy Suzi fired, because she lost? I give her credit for being the test case, I really do. She did not deserve to be fired for doing that, and was given a chance to pay up. Had she not, it was clear she was gone.

RR