US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

Congratulations to the east.

We can add to your list of accomplishments the following:

You have had a tail strike on every single 321 you fly.

From the rookies out west we say to the pros out east, "keep up the great work."

 

[Reed Richards]

Busted? USAPA wrote the rules, some just took advantage of the rules USAPA wrote. I do the same every April 15th, don't you? Does that make me a criminal or just smart?

Jim

Interesting, treating your fellow pilots doing union work (many volunteer) the same as you would the IRS. Load them up with tricks and conniving schemes to make them work harder. That’s the trick!

Not a good analogy Jim, especially from someone with as much union experience as you. Surely this is an off the cuff remark. You don't really believe this is the way to treat your own bargaining agent and fellow pilots, unless you perhaps hate them all. You think?

RR

 

[Pi brat]

Proof!

Yes, please show me proof that I'm not the age that I know I am.

The way things work with you are that you are shown you are wrong and you stick you fingers in your ears and run around "na, na, na I can't hear you!"

Sweetie, I've already told you that you got it wrong, as usual. Accept it.

 

[Reed Richards]

Congratulations to the east.

We can add to your list of accomplishments the following:

You have had a tail strike on every single 321 you fly.

From the rookies out west we say to the pros out east, "keep up the great work."

I was not aware you were currently flying, much less qualified. Why do you talk about such skills?

RR

 

[Move2CLT]

if you can't agree to a 10 year fence, your stealing...

You guys said no to any fence during neg/med/arb.

Why do you want one now?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Interesting, treating your fellow pilots doing union work (many volunteer) the same as you would the IRS. Load them up with tricks and conniving schemes to make them work harder. That’s the trick!

Not a good analogy Jim, especially from someone with as much union experience as you. Surely this is an off the cuff remark. You don't really believe this is the way to treat your own bargaining agent and fellow pilots, unless you perhaps hate them all. You think?

RR

Nice attempt to cover for USAPA's mistake, but it was their error. I think the truth is the USAPA's founders didn't really consider the PHX pilots but were more intent on how to circumvent the Nic. They made sure that the west would be under-represented on the BPR. They made sure that the west didn't have a veto on a contract. While not having a way for west pilots to become members may have been unintentional, USAPA definitely wanted their dues without giving them their own reps...

Now who's "busted? I'd say USAPA - they screwed up and wanted the west to pay for it...making the west seem like scum for following the rules USAPA wrote. Thanks for helping that effort...

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Hello Pi brat... Thanks for the welcome to the board. I was curious as to how you foresee the future of the "soap opera" unfolding, specifically some approximate timeline and a final outcome. From my POV, it appears that we are marching inexorably toward the NIC, however each goose-step in the parade seems to take 6-18 months. Do you foresee a different outcome? Is it worth the battle? Is it a function of the result of LOA93? Thanks again.

I'm thinking at least a couple more years until we are working in the same cockpit.

I always thought it would be hard to get around binding arbitration in the end, but I'm told by both sides that I don't know what I'm talking about, even when I'm just asking questions. Not sure if you caught the flaming I got last night.

Is it worth it or not is directly a product of where you sit on the seniority list. For a guy in the top east 517, I'd say no, but that group has been very supportive of the rest of the list. I figured that at my age and place on the list it probably wasn't worth it, but I saw how the guys junior to me were affected and understood their position. I thought the Nic was a miserable SLI but I voted for ALPA because I didn't think the USAPA plan would work and that we would be mired in years of lawsuits and a career of bad feelings. I got part of it right, we will see about the rest.

The LOA 93 decision may affect things. The extra pay would help the east live with no new contract, but we still have a bunch of lousy things to live with. I think bigger than the LOA 93 decision is the thought that this outfit won't pay enough to to make accepting the Nic worth it. If we had a SW or even DL contract hanging out there ready to become effective the minute the Nic fight was over, maybe you would see a push for that. But it isn't. Most people I know say they will not vote for a contract that includes the Nic. I say I will look at the total picture and see what makes the most sense for my family. If it is what is on the table now, the Kirby proposal, I will vote no and live on LOA 93. I guess we won't know until there is a real vote.

 

[Move2CLT]

I hope it takes another 5 years... by that time you will be crying in your wine, looking at our upgrades...

And you'll retired under LOA 93.

 

[Reed Richards]

BoeingBoy, EX fellow East Pilot explains it all:

And I don't think you want to get into the game of guilt by association with the skeletons in the East's closet. After all, I could easily say you refused to correct the injustice done to the Empire and Shuttle pilots, shoot holes in airplanes, run off the runway and into the water at LGA, don't know how to handle windshear, break the nose gear of airplanes, run into other airplanes, are a scab, etc.
Jim

Reed Richards, on 05 December 2011 - 12:35 AM, said:
Interesting, treating your fellow pilots doing union work (many volunteer) the same as you would the IRS. Load them up with tricks and conniving schemes to make them work harder. That’s the trick!

Not a good analogy Jim, especially from someone with as much union experience as you. Surely this is an off the cuff remark. You don't really believe this is the way to treat your own bargaining agent and fellow pilots, unless you perhaps hate them all. You think?

RR


Nice attempt to cover for USAPA's mistake, but it was their error. I think the truth is the USAPA's founders didn't really consider the PHX pilots but were more intent on how to circumvent the Nic. They made sure that the west would be under-represented on the BPR. They made sure that the west didn't have a veto on a contract. While not having a way for west pilots to become members may have been unintentional, USAPA definitely wanted their dues without giving them their own reps...

Now who's "busted? I'd say USAPA - they screwed up and wanted the west to pay for it...making the west seem like scum for following the rules USAPA wrote. Thanks for helping that effort...

Jim
Silver: No question the [9th] embraced the issue that there was harm to the West Pilots.

 

[Move2CLT]

I was not aware you were currently flying, much less qualified. Why do you talk about such skills?

RR

You never asked.

 

[luvthe9]

And you'll retired under LOA 93.

Hey, nice grammar!!!

 

[cactusboy53]

By "very bad" I mean a bunch of guys that were born and raised and have families on the west coast being pushed into a 5 hour commute to the east coast to get to work. I commuted for about 10 years and by far it is the single most stressful and crap side of this job. I only ever had a 1:15 minute plane ride for any of my commuting max and if i had a 14 day line, commuting normally added at least 4 days to that per month. Most of the time it was more like 5 or 6 days. For a reserve guy it means only sleeping in your own bed 6 to 8 nights a month.

I would not even remotely want to attempt a 5 hour commute. With the lines we now have, early show, late finish. The average 4 day trip would streatch to 6 easy.

For that matter, any integrated contract might end up bad for a lot of folks. I think Tempe for whatever reason really wants the transition agreement gone. I don't think it is so they can gut CLT and PHL and move time west.

Why / how exactly would the PHX based pilots be pushed into doing a 5 hour commute?? First, any base changes would take a year to get past. Even if they "gut" PHX as you think they will, I believe the next merger will make what happens in our circumstance moot.

How about you worry about being held to your word, accepting the final & binding seniority list, and stop our union from PI$$ING away millions more of our dues money on FRUITLESS litigation? How about you help to change the CBL's to reflect the legal seniority list? How about you help us right side this garbage scow of a union into a real independent union so as to focus on the next merger? You let us worry about our "commute".

In case you haven't heard about it, Parker can't stop thinking about another merger. IF that happens to be AA, we (collectively) will be out numbered (I can't tell you how expensive it is to defend yourselves against a larger group that is trying to deny my LMRDA rights!).

I've got news for you: If you think separate operations is a lock, Parker has enough in his wallet to buy just enough votes for a new joint contract with an unrestricted Nicolau seniority list. The courts are going to secure the Nicolau list as the seniority list for our combined pilot group. Now would be a very good time to get "on board" with that, and work as a group to get the VERY BEST CONTRACT possible prior to the next merger.

 

[MyJ4JjobSucks]

Am I reading the March bid wrong?

It shows 19 captain vacancies, of which 16 are wide body and 57 FO vacancies of which 42 are wide body. Unless all the captains returning from medical were previously WB captains, it would seem there will be a lot of movement in this bid.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Why / how exactly would the PHX based pilots be pushed into doing a 5 hour commute?? First, any base changes would take a year to get past. Even if they "gut" PHX as you think they will, I believe the next merger will make what happens in our circumstance moot.

How about you worry about being held to your word, accepting the final & binding seniority list, and stop our union from PI$$ING away millions more of our dues money on FRUITLESS litigation? How about you help to change the CBL's to reflect the legal seniority list? How about you help us right side this garbage scow of a union into a real independent union so as to focus on the next merger? You let us worry about our "commute".

In case you haven't heard about it, Parker can't stop thinking about another merger. IF that happens to be AA, we (collectively) will be out numbered (I can't tell you how expensive it is to defend yourselves against a larger group that is trying to deny my LMRDA rights!).

I've got news for you: If you think separate operations is a lock, Parker has enough in his wallet to buy just enough votes for a new joint contract with an unrestricted Nicolau seniority list. The courts are going to secure the Nicolau list as the seniority list for our combined pilot group. Now would be a very good time to get "on board" with that, and work as a group to get the VERY BEST CONTRACT possible prior to the next merger.

As i said before, i am done arguing on this board over USAPA this NIC that or whatever. It is pointless. The die is already cast, we are 6 years into this and no matter what we do or say here the lawsuits are going to fly no matter which way it goes. And I have always said on here that Doug CAN get NIC voted in anytime he wants, its just a matter of how much he is willing to pay. However it comes out i will keep plugging along, mergers both the good and bad parts are something that the east pilots know very well. This one is no different in that respect.

My response to you was to answer "exactly" as you termed it how I thought an integrated list would be very bad for the west. From seeing it before i think Tempe really wants to transfer a bunch of a/c and pilots east. Otherwise they would be adding time out west and hiring out there, which they are perfectly capable of doing today. They are not. instead they are hiring to the east and we don't have anybody retiring yet due to age.

My comments on how bad commuting is comes from personal experience doing short one hour commutes up and down the east coast. Even if I were an f/o today that could hold a Captain bid in PHX there is no way in hell I would bid it unless I was prepared to move to PHX. Even just up and down the east coast there were several years that I literally slept in the crashpad and hotel bed more than I did my own bed.

To your base change taking a year. Once the transition agreement is done it can be fast. I have had a couple instances in my career that say February I was happy as a lark driving from home to work and come April I am a commuter again, in the same seat and aircraft. Being forced to another base is as simple as the stroke of a pen. Last time it happened was to the 190 guys in 2009. December they were CLT based. January 2010 they were PHL based.

Simple as say, bid 05-12 One month bid, 30 319's being moved to PHL to support schedule. If you are too junior to hold phx you have 2 choices, commute to PHL or resign. Poof your seat in PHX no longer exists. In those cases it is nothing like the closure of BOS or LAS, there are no "moving money clauses etc. You are told thats where you are and you get an extra 4 days off for moving. Thats it. been there dont it. It sucks.

 

[luvn737s]

Seems ALPA could have learned a lot by watching USAPA's ability to correct problems in internal procedures. Maybe they would still be up 8M in dues had they done the same.

What exactly do the pilots of US get for their 8M?

I can't think of anything either

[Quote/]Not sure there is any learning curve here..not often a PIT F/O throws the largest pilot union in the free world off the property after 56 years, from his home computer with donations. Won't see that again anytime soon.[/quote]

Promise?

It's ironic that you reference "free world" with USAPA. You dumped a respected union with a track record of success in order to install a littledick tator.

Bradford was just ignorant as to just how much damage his little home computer could do. Now we all know.