US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

I would say this board is indicative of just how much had changed out east.

It looks like a new contract may not be that far out.

Swan, Claxon, MM, Mikey - all silent.

 

[OTTER574]

The part that no one on the West will ever get is the NIC was an ALPA INTERNAL UNION PROCESS... IT WAS BINDING ON ALPA as their bargaining position... not USAPA. While a judge may impose it (doubtful), otherwise, just like any other section of the contract, everything is negotiable until it is ratified.

The company and I don't agree with you.

Please read the transcripts from Federal Judge Silver 12/01/11, especially towards the end and educate/enlighten yourself. Federal Judge Wake Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law is also a good read for you, because she (Judge Silver) will be using this as a template in her ruling.

usair east alpa/usapa and supporters with blinders on still....for what, now going on the past 15 years? What a surprise!

OTTER

 

[Move2CLT]

The part that no one on the West will ever get is the NIC was an ALPA INTERNAL UNION PROCESS... IT WAS BINDING ON ALPA as their bargaining position... not USAPA. While a judge may impose it (doubtful), otherwise, just like any other section of the contract, everything is negotiable until it is ratified.

Sure it is boo boo.

You hang on to that old thinking.

 

[700UW]

The part that no one on the West will ever get is the NIC was an ALPA INTERNAL UNION PROCESS... IT WAS BINDING ON ALPA as their bargaining position... not USAPA. While a judge may impose it (doubtful), otherwise, just like any other section of the contract, everything is negotiable until it is ratified.

Ok then explain since your CBA and the T/A were negotiated by ALPA then how come they are in effect?

Let me explain something to you, changing unions does not alleviate the new union from the CBA, Arbitration and the T/A.

 

[Piedmont1984]

The part that no one on the West will ever get is the NIC was an ALPA INTERNAL UNION PROCESS... IT WAS BINDING ON ALPA as their bargaining position... not USAPA. While a judge may impose it (doubtful), otherwise, just like any other section of the contract, everything is negotiable until it is ratified.

It is the company's position as argued by its attorney at the hearing on Dec 1st that the process, although designed by ALPA and internal to the union in some respects, at some point failed to resolve the seniority dispute, and found it necessary for both parties to avail themselves of a federal arbitration mechanism, thereby shifting the venue outside of ALPA auspices. Which is why ALPA was powerless to overturn it.

 

[N903AW]

We are in a bad position... Mostly because of Team Tempe...

The reason you guys are in a bad position falls squarely at the feet of the East membership. Does your group not accept responsibility for anything??

You've failed. Time and time again. Swallow your damn pride, learn from your mistakes and proceed to move forward for crying out loud.

And stop blaming others for the shortcomings that USAPA created since it's corrupt inception.

 

[LSS]

It is the company's position as argued by its attorney at the hearing on Dec 1st that the process, although designed by ALPA and internal to the union in some respects, at some point failed to resolve the seniority dispute, and found it necessary for both parties to avail themselves of a federal arbitration mechanism, thereby shifting the venue outside of ALPA auspices. Which is why ALPA was powerless to overturn it.

Well I must have missed the part where it was availed to a federal arbitration mechanism... and a decision was rendered.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

The part that no one on the West will ever get is the NIC was an ALPA INTERNAL UNION PROCESS... IT WAS BINDING ON ALPA as their bargaining position... not USAPA. While a judge may impose it (doubtful), otherwise, just like any other section of the contract, everything is negotiable until it is ratified.

Yes, but you formed USAPA as a way to get out of your agreement, a pretty cowardly thing to do. Live up to your agreements, or don't ever complain when someone else fails to do so. Forming a new union doesn't give you a blank slate, especially when you all did it to run away from your responsibilities.

Maybe if you capitalize more letters it will make your case stronger? 🙄

 

[Move2CLT]

Well I must have missed the part where it was availed to a federal arbitration mechanism... and a decision was rendered.

Of course you did.

And let me point out that it was an eastie that corrected you.

Things have changed here for the better. Congrats to those that have figured if out.

 

[cactusboy53]

On the contrary. When the recall effort was underway to remove Cleary, where was the West pilot group? I challenged several of you on this and was told that it was your way of punishing USAPA and the East pilot group by keeping them tied to questionable leadership. Do you not know that with your help the whole leadership structure could have been replaced? But your group, the mini union which is AOL, sat on the sidelines hoping something bad would happen. Well, it did.

Driver...

What POSSIBLE difference would it have made the West pilot group to remove el Presidente Cleary?? EVERY other East candidate was pushing for DOH at any and all costs. Failing that EVERY other East pilot was seeking to compromise FROM the Nicolau Award! BTW, we didn't have to "hope something bad would happen"....we knew as we stood firmly on legal, moral and ethical grounds.

We simply decided that this is a case of "better the Devil you know vs. the one that you don't". Cleary has been predictable and has spent USAPA into a hole FASTER than any other East presidential candidate.

With the successive FAILURES that USAPA has experienced of late, there WILL be change in the makeup of the BPR. The question remains for the LURKERS: Have you now (or before) finally come to the conclusion that an unrestricted Nicolau Award is the only seniority list for our combined pilot group? Are you now ready for an improved contract? Are you now finally ready for a positive change in your circumstances?

1. If not already, become a Member in Good Standing.
2. Go to WWW.REFORMUSAPA.COM
3. Complete all three petitions on that site and send them in ASAP.
4. Participate & Vote at every opportunity.
5. If you have the time, VOLUNTEER.

If you are willing, we are willing to work with you as a team to get a contract that is at least as good as the current AWA contract with wages that equal or EXCEED the DAL wages. What say you? The 18+ Nicolau Nay Sayers need not comment (but we know that you will).

 

[crazystnic]

Crazy,

I can understand where you're coming from. I sit next to those guys everyday. It's not about getting a small raise for me for my remaining years. Honestly, I don't need the money. I still enjoy flying. But what it truly comes down to is, even though I voted NO on everything it had to do with the BK BS, (except I did vote for USAPA - not because they were the answer, I felt Alpa was no longer representing our best interests), we have failed miserably. We need to accept that fact and, for once in our lives, do the right thing. Whether we didn't vote for this or didn't vote for that, we became complacent- something you're taught to watch out for in our job........why not in our lives. I'm prepared to take we we've sowed. It needs to be put to a vote and we need to accept the outcome. Its time to MAN UP!!!
Just my thoughts and feelings!!

what is to vote on? and the west keeps spewing out of their mouths that the NIC is Fair,,,

it clearly isn't fair or they would agree to the 10 year fence and we could move on..

but NO... all CB keeps saying is put it to a vote and all the rest say is live up to the agreement.

well I'm living up to it.. the TA says until there is a JOINT CBA there is no NIC...

and if I have my way there never will be a JOINT CBA with the NIC.

 

[Move2CLT]

what is to vote on? and the west keeps spewing out of their mouths that the NIC is Fair,,,

it clearly isn't fair or they would agree to the 10 year fence and we could move on..

but NO... all CB keeps saying is put it to a vote and all the rest say is live up to the agreement.

well I'm living up to it.. the TA says until there is a JOINT CBA there is no NIC...

and if I have my way there never will be a JOINT CBA with the NIC.

You guys didn't want fences when we were negotiating so you're not getting fences now.

And the Nic was our compromise. It's more than generous consider the situation you were in.

It's over crazy. Move on or quit.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Of course you did.

And let me point out that it was an eastie that corrected you.

Things have changed here for the better. Congrats to those that have figured if out.

That is the company's argument. USAPA, OTOH, maintained at the hearing that it was ALL an internal ALPA process, arbitration included, and therefore non-binding on ALPA's successor.

The way I understood from reading the transcripts, Judge Silver identified that as the key legal question. Is the NIC binding or not? If she renders an unambiguous judgement on that important question, and if that judgement binds USAPA to the NIC, I, for one, am not inclined to pursue an appeal.

Time to fold em and focus on a joint contract. If I were an east pilot hired between '87 and '90, this would indeed be a very tough pill.

 

[Move2CLT]

IMHO, I think it will be ambiguous and the company will reaffirm the position that the Nic is it. They have already stated this position in the DJ hearings.

You guys need to work on crazy and bring him around. He's like the Japanese on Iwo Jima - pointless waste of effort.

 

[aquagreen73s]

It is the company's position as argued by its attorney at the hearing on Dec 1st that the process, although designed by ALPA and internal to the union in some respects, at some point failed to resolve the seniority dispute, and found it necessary for both parties to avail themselves of a federal arbitration mechanism, thereby shifting the venue outside of ALPA auspices. Which is why ALPA was powerless to overturn it.

One slight but significant correction Piedmont....ALPA did have the power to ignore the arbitration result, but they felt they did not have the right to ignore the arbitration result. This is where $eham's entire legal premise has failed - he conflated power with right. Those are two completely independent legal concepts. Sure USAPA (like any other union) has the power to negotiate, but those powers are limited by what they can rightfully do. My guess is that $eham has known this all along, and he knew his theory wouldn't withstand a court challenge. That's why he launched the RICO suit as a means of breaking the West's will to fight. When the West withstood that and when the West then organized their own defense of the Nicolau, it was over. He's known it all along which is why $eham intentionally allowed the average East pilot to believe the ripeness decision from the 9th was the equivalent of a judgment on the merits. Absolutely false, but then again it's made him plenty of money.